Angie (00:00)
Welcome back to Tails of Truth, where we tell the truth about veterinary medicine. I'm Dr. Angie, and this is my co-host and veterinary nurse, Extraordinaire Jojo. And today we are joined by Brooke Fagel, our favorite dog trainer on the internet. We have been fangirls of Brooke for, I mean, a while now. We've been stalking you on social media.

And we wish you would style us. And not only are you a very stylish trainer, but you have the best slogan, no pain to train. And every time I see your reels and you do your dance and you say no pain to train, I get really excited about that. And what's really cool about what you're doing is that you're helping people train their dogs positively with kind techniques and humane techniques. And so thanks for

being on our show today and we're so happy to hear everything you have to say.

Brooke Fagel (00:55)
Thank you so much for having me.

JoJo (00:57)
I have to say, not only do I fangirl over you, but I'm definitely fangirling over your dogs because I'm such a husky person and my husky passed in January and you have one that looks so much like him. And so I just I just love I love your dogs.

Brooke Fagel (01:12)
thank you. I'm so sorry to hear about your baby. What so

JoJo (01:15)
Wow.

Brooke Fagel (01:15)
magic, did you have a black and white one or?

JoJo (01:18)
You know, you have one that's like a little bit has more black in the front and then the layered like white, black, white.

Brooke Fagel (01:23)
Legend.

JoJo (01:24)
Yeah, that one. So

Brooke Fagel (01:25)
Yes. He's the he's

my he's my talker.

JoJo (01:28)
Mine was one who would like pull the blanket off of you and be like, We're going. It's time. Get up.

Brooke Fagel (01:34)
Did yours talk?

JoJo (01:35)
huh. Yep. Love it.

Brooke Fagel (01:36)
Mm everyone

always wants all mine to talk, but only one of mine is very chatty. But I think it's because I train them to be really calm. So only one talks.

JoJo (01:44)
Where so where do we want to begin this conversation? I like the slogan. Let's start with that. no pain to train. Did I get it right? No pain to train.

Brooke Fagel (01:52)
You did. You did indeed.

JoJo (01:53)
Yeah.

Brooke Fagel (01:54)
you know dog training is it's a very divided world and there's a lot of information out there about dog training and in my experience when I ended up with three dogs that were not perfect,

It never dawned on me that I would harm them to train them. And all of a sudden I had three rescue dogs that had all these issues. They were knocking me down before I was a dog trainer. And I just started diving into behavior and I was really just taken aback on the different methods that were being used. And

I could never fathom harming my dog to train my dog and I not only started figuring it out, but I started reaching out to some dog trainers that do positive dog training on more of an advanced level And I just couldn't believe that there was just a very select few 'cause they don't put a lot of positive dog training on T V. They put different methods of training and I really just went

Down the behavior rabbit hole, so to speak, about how to fix my own dogs. it's actually also why I wanted to add Huskies as well, because people say huskies are hard to train or they have such high drive. And Boulder is a beautiful, wonderful, magical place, but there are bunnies and there are squirrels everywhere. And I love showing people how you can teach them.

It takes time, but you can teach them to come back to you from all the magical creatures that are on my walks every five steps and every park I go to and in Boulder all over the bunnies. They sit there and wait. I don't know why. I feel I've dubbed them as being not very smart, but they're also very lucky because mine are very well trained. But it's a lot of simulation for the dogs.

Angie (03:40)
Absolutely. we see a lot of our clients using negative training. I'm gonna

JoJo (03:46)
Mm-hmm.

Angie (03:46)
I'm gonna say it nicely. And it's really difficult for us. And I think as a veterinarian, it's really hard for me to kind of inject my own training philosophies, especially as someone who's owned pugs. Like I have no credibility except for my veterinary degree, which also, you went to vet school too, Brooke.

So we can talk about that later. But it's not like I've ever trained a working dog. Like I just don't think pugs count I mean, they're great dogs, but like they're easy to train and you don't really need them to do much, right? You can just scoop them up. And so when I see, and Jojo and I, especially we were making house calls, we would see a lot of kind of negative punishing techniques.

That included, things you would see in the manosphere, like, I'm the alpha, we gotta roll them over, or all of those things that are just so cringy. We have all this

Brooke Fagel (04:39)
Yes.

Angie (04:40)
data to show that it's bad. So when you were in veterinary school, you were like, I know this is bad. But I think sometimes it's hard to know how to replace that. And I'm so glad you're here to tell us how to replace that.

Stuff that seems effective, even though we have the data to support. It's actually not. It's not

JoJo (05:02)
I think that is a very old school belief system that still exists in terms of I must dominate, I must create submission. I saw it happen in my own home when a dog came in, when that husky came in and my husband was like, no, it's not gonna do this to me kind of thing. Cause that's what he learned. And I was like, the dog is communicating with you.

Listen to what he's communicating and you'll have a great relationship. And it worked. And so I know positive can work, but I also know like that thread of the I don't you said manosphere, Angie. And I'm like, what? I have like different words in my head. I'm trying to like

Brooke Fagel (05:39)
Ha.

JoJo (05:41)
keep it somewhere. But anyhow the very toxic domination

Angie (05:45)
patriarchy. It's the patriarchy.

JoJo (05:47)
Yeah, it's even it's

just I that's what we know is to dominate

Angie (05:52)
Yes.

JoJo (05:53)
in submission. I bet you see that all the time in your world.

Brooke Fagel (05:56)
All the time.

and one of the reasons that I do all the training, well there's a lot of reasons for that, but a lot of times I feel it by the time people come to me, and it's been very humbling being in a new market because when I started as a woman business owner, when I started here, one of the first things that I did was I went around

To other trainers and other daycares who have certain philosophies, and I was very naive. And I was hi, I'm Brooke, and I'm a positive trainer. And I learned really quick that people swing on the aversion side. It's just I learned very quickly, it was very divided. And which for me, I never want my channel to be divided. I want it to be educational because

People may or may not know and when they do come to me, I am very big on educating you 'cause I just okay, you think that's maybe what your dog may or may not need but are you open to trying something else? And I think that the dog training industry is so inundated when people think of positive, they think of food, food, food, food, food. And that's one of the first thing that I teach people. Yes, positive dog training is

about food, but learning how to use food is really step one so that they can use food for one skill and then they get better and use food for another skill and then they get better. And in my experience a lot of times if they go without naming names, but if they go to well, a petco or a pet smart where they give a lot of food, then they tend to get frustrated and think my dog's only going to be trained if I give them food, but

The truth is a lot of people don't know how to get past that first step. That's one part of it. And dogs, they're not trying to overtake the world. Then nothing's gonna happen if they sleep in bed with you. In fact, the only reason my husky sleep next to me is because he sheds an awful lot, but he does have his own blanket, so he just sleeps on the end of the bed. But none of those things mean they're trying to overtake the world. I mean, if they don't wanna have a cuddle puddle, then

I feel like I'm probably doing something in my own training. they are looking to us for guidance and whether it's positive or not. And that's another reason I'm fascinated with so many dogs, I see people think of me with huskies now, which is beautiful. I love that. But they're amazing with positive training and not to go down too far, but even mushing and how they were used was all really intense and they're

actually really sensitive, lovely, amazing dogs when they're trained positively. Mine are calm and chill and they enjoy the nice training that they get, but there's still rules in positive training. I'm just not mean. nor would I ever be.

JoJo (08:28)
I love two things that you said, 'cause I feel like ninety percent of trainers say the dog should never be in bed with you. And

Brooke Fagel (08:35)
Yes.

JoJo (08:36)
I'm like, I'm never gonna adopt that. And I know a lot of people would probably never because that's one of my favorite parts of the day. I love that moment

Brooke Fagel (08:43)
Agreed.

JoJo (08:44)
of crawling into bed with my dog. and then two, I was just thinking as you were saying it, people continue the

aggressive types of training, the negative reinforcement, the punishment, because it's effective. It does work. Right. Like you can get the same result.

Intimidation and fear is is effective in some ways.

Angie (09:00)
I mean I guess. It's like effective on the layer, but

Brooke Fagel (09:03)
It's

Angie (09:03)
but then

you create this like underlying, mental illness 'cause it's abuse, right?

JoJo (09:08)
think it's

you get maybe the same end result like the dog obeys, if you will.

Angie (09:12)
Mm, mm.

JoJo (09:13)
but the relationship is not good.

Brooke Fagel (09:15)
I think that's what's so difficult about it is that on the outside it could look like it could work because what happens

JoJo (09:22)
Mm-hmm.

Brooke Fagel (09:22)
in my experience and I'm getting more and more of this, which is very hard to see. I I had a dog that came from a rescue, it was in Airedale and the rescue said he's good with cats, he's good with

other dogs and these super sweet clients of mine was like, Okay, great. I'll I'll I'll take this dog into my home and the dog had a collar on and the second the collar came off, the dog was not good with cats, was not good with other people and was not good with anything.

JoJo (09:46)
Mm-hmm.

Brooke Fagel (09:46)
And these sweet humans didn't know what to do. And a lot of times with e collar training is that it shuts them down. And for me, I stay safe when dogs give

whatever sort of signs. I'm sure all of us would know how to stay safe with soft eye movement or, a head tilt and they're telling us that they're starting to be uncomfortable and e collar training a lot of times shuts that down so then they don't have any sort of repercussion. then by the time when they do react, not with all dogs, but then they can react a lot

more intensely. so I'm seeing a big uptick in dogs that are coming to me after they've been trained with an e collar.

Angie (10:22)
Can you help them? can you undo that?

Brooke Fagel (10:24)
Yes. There's many different levels and for the first time in my career I've given a lot of time away, if I'm involved, I'm involved and I don't do a lot of board and train because I don't like to sell your dog's gonna be perfect in two weeks is I don't think that's accurate and I am very big on I wanna teach you how to do it and that's gonna take some time but

Yeah, some of these dogs I took in to help them further along so that they can get more comfortable overall because they needed that time. So yes, the difference is like different cases is some come around quicker, some come around and now they're a management case and it takes a lot longer and that's difficult obviously for some some people can't train their dogs like me. I mean my island dogs

some of them took me years to train them, so and I'm really glad they were with me. I think those dogs should be with me 'cause I can help them and put the time in to help them. I'm happy to take on those cases.

JoJo (11:23)
I feel like I'm somebody who doesn't have the patience. And so I don't even attempt. And this is so bad. I hope other people can relate

Brooke Fagel (11:29)
Yeah.

JoJo (11:30)
to this because I'm gonna say it out loud because I feel shame around it. But my own dog is very dog aggressive and she hates people outside the home. I just have to let her be that instead of investing in helping her through that because it seems so daunting.

And I don't actually have the skill set to do it on my own. Which is why I'm like, man, Brooke's coming to Boulder. I need Brooke in my life. but I think a lot of people must be in that point where it feels so daunting.

Brooke Fagel (11:55)
They are and one of my favorite stories and again years ago, but I'm not embarrassed, one of my dogs, one of my island dogs, they're dreamy. He's one of the only dogs I don't train with with clients dogs because he was attacked and he has a long history of just a lot of things happen and he just doesn't like it. He's not that dog. But when I first rescued him, I was in a park.

And some lady was yelling at me that I should get a dog trainer. And this is before I was a dog trainer. And

so all of those things I think a lot of people experience, I've experienced. there is a lot of shame with it, but I I think that's why the information I really want to help, because there is a way of helping those dogs and there's no shame involved. They have emotions just like we do. I mean

I don't wanna be everybody's friend, like as I continue, to go on and they get more selective as well. They change. The year one is much different than year four. And I see that a lot of that information, if they have prey drive in them, just so many things change and there's not a lot of information where I think we're even talking about how their temperaments change, our lives can change, maybe they spend more time inside and

as puppies, it's puppy classes, but that changes and then they don't a lot of times go back to those type of environments. So I see a lot of that as well with higher drive dogs. But there's no shame at all. it's all fixable and it is daunting 'cause not having a perfect dog is difficult.

Angie (13:22)
Yeah. And most people don't.

Brooke Fagel (13:24)
No, they don't.

Angie (13:25)
yeah. And I I think we have these expectations of dogs of what they're gonna be for us and what they're gonna do. And whether you get a puppy from the shelter or you go to the breeder and get a doodle, you really don't know what you're getting. it's kind of like having kids. Like you just don't really know, and then you have to figure out how to deal with that and

For some people it's really difficult.

Brooke Fagel (13:49)
I love that you said that about doodles as well 'cause in Southern California I get a lot of doodles 'cause the people want the non shedding more than the breed. and I think a lot of us in the industry we're probably seeing a giant uptick in doodles 'cause the mini, the toy people are breeding these dogs that

don't shed, but they're not breeding them for temperament. So I'm seeing a lot of this repetition with the dogs that probably didn't used to have these issues, the Goldens, the Labs, or now the Bernadoodles, or Sheepadoodles, or all the doodles, but I'm seeing a big uptick in those dogs as well. That they're breeding.

Angie (14:26)
Yeah, it doesn't always turn out the way you hope it will when you start breeding the dogs together. And that's why I tell my kids, they have a select few breeds that I'm like, if you're gonna go to a breeder and everyone can come for me in the comments about using breeders, but I'm not against breeders because I think I think that it's okay to select a breed and say this is best for my lifestyle and my family. But I've told my children, you can get a golden retriever, you can get.

A poodle, like a poodle poodle, no mix, just a poodle. or you can get a Cavalier King Charles spaniel. And so that's Well of course I want one.

Brooke Fagel (15:05)
Me too. I want one too. I love them so much.

Angie (15:08)
Yeah. I'm like, those are your three. although last week I had a golden retriever growl at me for the first time in my career.

JoJo (15:17)
What?

Angie (15:17)
Like I didn't know what to do. I was like, what is happening? I wish, Brooke, I wish you would have been there. Cause I just had this moment after twenty years of practice where I'm like, you know, when you work around dogs, you sometimes actually don't even

intellectually know why you feel uncomfortable. You just know that they feel uncomfortable. And I got that first

Brooke Fagel (15:36)
Yes.

Angie (15:37)
flash of this dog is uncomfortable. And I'm like, it's a golden. So I just backed off a little bit and then like came back. And then he growled at me and lifted his lip. I think I shut down because I was like, I don't know which way is up anymore. And I didn't even know how to handle it. But for the most part, I see those breeds being the most well adjusted.

For someone who just needs to plug and play, like a turnkey dog, if you will. But for the most part, I don't really experience that in other mixed breed dogs. If you go to the shelter and you get a puppy that's probably some herding breed mixed with another herding breed. I think it's important for people to understand, and Brooke you might feel differently, that like it's okay to not rescue all your dogs. And in Boulder, we see.

A lot of people feeling really dedicated to rescue. And I think that's great. But sometimes they're actually not ready for what they're rescuing. And I think it's a really honorable thing to do, but it's maybe not always the best thing for that dog. you kind of have to know what you're doing to to live with some of these breeds.

Brooke Fagel (16:40)
I couldn't agree with you more. obviously before vet school, before doing behavior, I could understand, but I am like both of us, I'm on the flip side of that. I see when these dogs are being put in these people's homes and they're getting hurt, they're getting harmed, they're running away, and I know and I'm very honest and I'll tell them I said there's a difference in training.

We have a goal like we'll just say a golden. this dog might take a month and this dog might take a couple years, which is like in management. so yes, I agree very, very much. 'Cause I don't want people to get hurt or harmed and that's what can happen.

Angie (17:17)
Yeah.

JoJo (17:17)
Yeah,

we we saw those mismatches quite often in house calls, which would frustrate me because I felt and this is no shade on the adoption industry or the shelter industry, but sometimes I think there's such a desperation to put the dog in a home, but not necessarily the well matched home. So

Brooke Fagel (17:34)
Right home.

JoJo (17:35)
we would see these high herding breeds with a very elderly person in an apartment where

Angie (17:41)
Mm-hmm.

JoJo (17:42)
It was just so hyperactive, such big needs, not to the fault of the dog, but totally out of capacity for the person that they matched with. And I bet that just sets up frustration for dog and people. we can do better.

Brooke Fagel (17:54)
Or I

agree and when I went to people's homes, in fact as I've gone on, I've been very specific with their dogs, if their dogs are away, if it's another dog, 'cause you have to be really careful, so I'm sure you know if you open someone's gate and all the dogs are running at you as well. so I I've learned how to set things up, but I also think that although

We all love these dogs and a lot of times the people in the shelters, again, no shade to any shelters, but I think a a lot of times that some people who are not in the industry might not pick up things that somebody else might pick up as well. So if I hear there's a behaviorist or a vet looking at the dog and just can pick up more things to know maybe what's a good home, what's not a good home, but

I think that's very tough and very difficult.

JoJo (18:40)
Are people only bringing

in their larger dogs? does anybody ever train their Chihuahua?

Does that happen? It is, okay. Okay.

Brooke Fagel (18:45)
Yes. Yes. There it's not the

Angie (18:50)
Do you think

that they aren't JoJo?

JoJo (18:53)
Well, I just if you look at trainers and stuff, do you ever see small dogs in the pictures?

ever

Angie (18:59)
No.

JoJo (19:00)
like pocket sized dogs. So do we just accept them 'cause we can why don't we train little dogs? I hear you do. I know exactly, but

Angie (19:05)
We just scoop up. We just get scooped.

Brooke Fagel (19:10)
the little dogs we call it little dog syndrome. The little dogs will get you sometimes many more than the big dogs because they've gotten away with more because they're if a li if a chihuahua is barking and a German shepherd, it's people think it's funny when it's the Chihuahua, but the German Shepherd

JoJo (19:26)
Mm-hmm.

Brooke Fagel (19:27)
it's not it's not as humorous.

Angie (19:28)
No family.

JoJo (19:29)
No, I saw it

Angie (19:29)
Yeah.

JoJo (19:30)
happen in the airport last night. A chihuahua and a German Shepherd. And the Chihuahua was going

Angie (19:34)
Wait they were barking at each other?

JoJo (19:37)
off. And the German Shepherd's like, whatever, dude. But it was just interesting. And everybody thought it was funny. And I was like, I I'm

Brooke Fagel (19:44)
Yes.

JoJo (19:44)
gonna ask Brooke about that. does the Chihuahua just gets to do that? Nobody ever brings him in.

Brooke Fagel (19:48)
Only when they have bitten sometimes their bite histories it's not the first time. It's been going on for a long time. It's severe this was my favorite when I really changed things. just come in. My dog will only bite you two times. And I was like, Mm, no no no. Let's

JoJo (20:03)
What?

Brooke Fagel (20:06)
let's fix that before I walk through your door. I don't need to get bit to see that your dog bites. I got it.

JoJo (20:13)
Well, that's what I was gonna ask

you. So a dog like mine that might take an hour to warm up to you in the home, maybe more, before you can even touch her. how how do you establish a relationship with a dog that is fear based around humans?

Brooke Fagel (20:25)
I fix that. I don't after COVID I stop going to people's homes and I have people bring me their dog and they're in a new environment and then I have the humans leave so I work with the dog a little bit and then the dog has an opportunity to warm up and to learn and also there's a new environment so they're not as fearful if it's like a safe environment for them, obviously.

And then when the human comes back, I have an opportunity to teach the sweet little nuggets some things and then I can teach the human as well. And when I started setting that up, they just pick things up a lot quicker. 'Cause in the house there's triggers, the door, the doorbell or whatever else they're used to. And when you remove them from that, at least from the start, it gives them an opportunity to learn things on a basic level. And then when they go back into their environment

I find that it sticks a lot more.

I

set it up for success so that your baby's comfortable from the beginning instead of who's this human in my house? I like to take that out now.

JoJo (21:28)
Right, 'cause there's both sides,

Angie (21:28)
Smart.

JoJo (21:29)
right? Like there's the dogs that are just way more aggressive in their home and you take them outside

Brooke Fagel (21:34)
Yes.

JoJo (21:34)
the environment. And then there's the others that just do so much better in their home than the outside environment. We've seen both.

Brooke Fagel (21:40)
my reactive dog now can have people come come in and he's the worst guard dog on the planet because I conditioned him through all different kinds of behaviors

That's what behavior is to me. It's working through all of the fear that the dog has instead of shutting them down and hoping for the best.

JoJo (21:57)
you're reinforcing safety over and over again, teaching the dog that they're safe with whatever stimulant or environment that they're in, they're safe with you in their body, is what I'm hearing. and that takes time, but we live in a world and we're in a society that wants quick fixes for everything.

Brooke Fagel (22:13)
Yes.

Yes. So

JoJo (22:14)
Yeah.

Brooke Fagel (22:15)
that's why I do day training. So when my clients come, I switch my whole model And so they do two, three, or four hours. So people can do one longer

JoJo (22:25)
Mm.

Brooke Fagel (22:26)
day. And during that day I can get them to a point of the basics of doing things with other dogs, leash walking, so then that one day

I can give them fifty percent of a program and then within a couple of lessons, they're walking their dogs on the street. And again, this isn't for everyone, it depends. But when I break it down little by little for them, then they can be successful with their dogs. But in all honesty, if I have a dog that's so scared that's terrified, that dog may not ever enjoy really being on Coot Lake,

Every time I go there I love that place, but it's dogs are everywhere and some dogs they might not enjoy that. And I like to advocate for them to say, Maybe go to another area that's not that busy, because some dogs may not ever like that. I think that's also an important part of people understanding the dogs that they have as well to set them up for success.

JoJo (23:23)
I love that. I love

Angie (23:23)
Excellent.

JoJo (23:23)
that accepting their limitation too, right? I love setting the expectation that they may not ever be there. And I think that's maybe if I give myself a little bit of grace with Sage in terms of what is her safe place and what she can have and not asking more of her. And maybe

Brooke Fagel (23:39)
Of course.

JoJo (23:40)
that's okay.

Brooke Fagel (23:40)
I think the shame around having that, which is I know a lot of people feel, but we can't always control if horrible experiences we had and genetics and there's so many things that go into like when I got my sweet little island dogs, in all honesty, they're a mix of a lot of dogs that

I may not just go out and get like I would today now that I've been training for over ten years, but I had no idea back then and understanding that some dogs also are have a predisposition that they're gonna be very sensitive when without knowing how to do consistent training, they're most likely gonna end up being reactive 'cause like German Shepherds, they're very sensitive. So without a job, it's gonna go one way or another.

JoJo (24:27)
And I can't read a German Shepherd. Angie and I've had this talk. I'm terrified of German Shepherds. For some reason I cannot read

Angie (24:32)
they're my favorite.

JoJo (24:33)
I know they're Angie's favorite. I can't read the switch in a German Shepherd. Yeah.

Angie (24:39)
That's how I feel about Chihuahuas.

Brooke Fagel (24:40)
Very

Angie (24:43)
So I'm scared of them.

JoJo (24:44)
I just assume which

Hihuawa's gonna bite, so I just go in with that. Which is probably not a fair assumption either.

Brooke Fagel (24:50)
But most of them do because most of them get

JoJo (24:52)
Yeah.

Brooke Fagel (24:53)
by the time they come, most of them they have bit several times. So I think we all can probably be in agreement with that. I mean

JoJo (25:01)
Yeah.

Brooke Fagel (25:01)
the likelihood

Angie (25:02)
yeah.

Brooke Fagel (25:02)
of of of them having a bite history is probably pretty high.

Angie (25:06)
Yeah. Absolutely. But I feel like German Shepherds, and I was just having this conversation last week with one of my nurses. I've I feel like girl German Shepherds are so much more reasonable. do you think that's true, Brooke? I feel like

Brooke Fagel (25:19)
Reasonable.

Angie (25:21)
Yeah, I think they're more reasonable. I think they're less emotional. I feel like male German shepherds just they get really emotional very quickly.

JoJo (25:28)
why? 'Cause Angie are you seeing more diarrhea or something in male German shepherds?

Angie (25:31)
No, like emotional

in their reactiveness. I remember the first time it happened to me, I was doing acupuncture. It was probably 15 years ago. And I made a house calls to this one, it was a police officer, and these two German shepherds weren't necessarily police dogs, but ran with police dogs. And I would do

acupuncture every week on the female German Shepherd. they're like, well, maybe you could do it for him too. And I put one acupuncture needle in this dog and he screamed. I was just like, and they're like hair thin. And my first needle is always in a place that's usually comfortable. and I remember that was the first time in my career where I was like, yeah, I feel like the girl ones are just more reasonable. And I just

keep having experiences that reinforce my theory that the girl ones are just more reasonable.

Brooke Fagel (26:24)
I I I was thinking of all the Ger

Angie (26:24)
Frick has nothing to say.

Brooke Fagel (26:26)
No, I w I was thinking of all the German shepherds that that I've seen.

JoJo (26:28)
I think she's sitting there, she's like, Can I

say she's full of bunk?

Angie (26:33)
Ha ha ha.

Brooke Fagel (26:34)
I see so many anxious ones. One of the things that a lot of the German Shepherds do is they don't hesitate to scream, especially if their humans are far away. But the the girls I I would I would say I would agree. I feel like the girls are they're more sensitive, so they're a little more people people pleasing. But I get so many with so much anxiety, especially later on.

Angie (26:56)
Well we probably see a different population of German shepherds, you see more German shepherds that are more anxious and are struggling, maybe than I do. I

JoJo (27:05)
You do too. I

mean, how many of them are coming in with upset stomachs because they're anxious?

Angie (27:11)
well, that's another thing. Like their GI problems are another thing. But I see

JoJo (27:15)
Because they're anxious. Yeah.

Angie (27:17)
a fair amount of German Shepherds that I do fine with. and when I think about breeds that I usually have to muzzle, that is not my number one. And I often really don't. I feel like

Brooke Fagel (27:27)
Wait, what wait,

what is what is your number one?

Angie (27:31)
I mean Chihuahua, like number one. yeah,

Brooke Fagel (27:34)
okay, yeah.

Angie (27:35)
Dachshunds. I think of them like probably

Brooke Fagel (27:39)
Yes.

Angie (27:40)
solid number two, but not always. I feel bad about that. I feel bad about everything I'm about to say next, and then I would say I mean Malinois, and I again I've guilt around this. I just assume they're gonna use their mouth. And so the minute they

Become a little more nervous and reactive. Cause I really don't want them to have a bite history because of my mess up. And so I think I muzzle them more readily and think that they might need it. who else?

JoJo (28:08)
Cockers

Angie (28:10)
You know what? I don't see that many cocker spaniels at all. Everyone, yeah, I just don't see many of those anymore. But and the ones that we have that

I have in the practice now, I don't ever have to muzzle them. But, I don't think they're as popular as they used to be because of, what was the movie that got them really popular? I don't think they're as popular as they used to be. But like Jack Russell's, they wanna kill me. They for sure wanna kill me.

JoJo (28:33)
They're cute though.

Angie (28:34)
I don't know. And when I say this for everyone listening, I know your dog doesn't want to kill me, but they also just don't want me to like get their blood or vaccinate them.

do other things to them, which is

JoJo (28:43)
We had one

dog that was definitely wanting to kill you.

Angie (28:46)
that German shepherd that cornered me. Yeah, he wanted

JoJo (28:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Angie (28:51)
me out of his house. When we were making house calls, he's just like, Get out of here, lady And then I stayed and he so he was, Please get out.

Brooke Fagel (28:58)
That's scary, especially if it's a multi- Dog household.

Angie (29:01)
Yes.

JoJo (29:01)
yeah.

Angie (29:03)
I saw a dog yes.

Brooke Fagel (29:03)
That's that changes the

whole dynamic as well.

Angie (29:06)
It does. I have a three dog household in the practice and I just saw one of them yesterday. And twice a year they get into fights. And I mean bad. I had to send them to the emergency room because I was like, I actually don't have time to sew all this up today. And I feel really bad for them because once dogs start to do that, like I think they're gonna have to either accept that this happens or rehome a dog. Cause I don't

JoJo (29:30)
Yeah, I gonna ask

you that, Brooke. What is your position on rehoming Cause we see homes in which people are having these dogs live in separate areas and they're like, gate here, don't open this gate unless you do this door. And it just feels like such a tense situation, and not just tense, but dangerous. But people don't wanna have a conversation about rehoming.

Brooke Fagel (29:52)
I get a lot of these calls, especially from a lot of the clinics here as well. I do say this often. When I have when there are people who join households that have dogs and someone just told me they had six together, when they have that and there were no issues

I tell them that they were so lucky because the likelihood of it not being done in a way to just for me, I always say I say, I you know, when I bring another dog in, like it's done very specific because I want to guarantee that everyone's gonna be okay. Guarantee everything's gonna be set up well. So it's very sad to hear because by the time that that happened that the dogs are separate.

I already know that so much has already gone on. Like there were warning signs that people probably didn't pick up and they didn't know to pick up, but the dogs are already so stressed and now they're more stressed. it's a pretty serious situation by the time that's happened because once they start practicing that behavior, it's not that it can't be undone. It's just that there's been so much stress that's already taken place in the house and it's a lot of different steps for the people

to undo. So if it's safe for the dogs to be rehomed or to have a life where they're not living like that, I mean, I will always advocate for the dogs. That's being separate that is tough for them as well.

Angie (31:09)
Mm-hmm.

Brooke Fagel (31:10)
I would I would never want that.

JoJo (31:11)
someone would hire someone like you to help them do that. If they know they're gonna merge families, dog families, they could hire someone like you to make that introduction.

Brooke Fagel (31:20)
Yes, absolutely. In fact I thank people that call me before they've done that as well to set everything up for success because I tell them if you know what to do and again, some situations, although I can't guarantee but when there's communication for everybody it it's 'cause I have dogs that would generally not all do well together and because I've introduced them in a certain way, they all

know what to do and they're all okay and I never have to worry. So it's guaranteeing that everything's gonna be okay instead of hoping for the best.

Angie (31:50)
Nice.

JoJo (31:51)
I feel like we could probably at least talk for another hour. but I'm really curious what you want people to know.

Brooke Fagel (31:56)
I really, passionately want people to know that there's help with training a dog and you don't have to harm them ever. positive training is so much more than just giving a dog food. Learning behavior and understanding your own individual dog's behavior is

Our responsibility as their owner so they can live the best safest life. I want to help people learn how to do that because there's a lot of disconnect and what our dogs should be and then what they are, and there's so many pieces in between. And all I wanna do is give it to everyone so they can have the best lives with their dogs, because when they know how to do some skills and

people pick up a couple of skills well. what I teach dogs to do, I take a lot of the curriculum out of sit down, come, stay, leave it, 'cause people leave and their dogs know nothing or they know some things, but I tell people I want to take all that out and I wanna teach your dogs a couple things really, really well so we can use them. And when we can do that,

They're amazing and they will do it as well. imagine in the vet office if the dog could actually do a settle or could actually do a touch or a watch me. it's gonna calm them down instead of going scary bet, scary vet in front of me, if we can redirect them and they can do a couple of things well, they're gonna be able to come down no matter what environment they're in and teaching people how to do that is I think such a big big need and I hope people know that

Although it might take more than two weeks, there's just so many options out there for them and for their dog.

JoJo (33:29)
So what are they looking for then when they're looking for a trainer? What are some key things they need to avoid? Because I hear these words being used and I'm like, okay, well, is spraying with a spray bottle? Is that considered negative training? You know? And so What are they looking for when they're looking for a positive trainer?

Brooke Fagel (33:46)
You know, I hear that a lot with the spray bottle. And what I tell people is I say, Okay, I get why you're doing that, did it fix the behavior? Did your dog stop barking? And a lot of times what happens is that never fixes the behavior. What's happening is the dog's now afraid of the bottle. they didn't stop the behavior. I like to

Challenge them and say, What if there was another way? Are you open to trying something different? what I I try to help them with is have another way. 'Cause again, being afraid of the bottle, it's never gonna fix the behavior, it's ever gonna stop. They're gonna walk around with a with a spray bottle for ten years. And maybe we don't have to do that. Maybe we can do something else, something better.

JoJo (34:24)
Right.

Brooke Fagel (34:25)
Yes, welcome to my world. It's very difficult when I see the things that I see like even walking my dog or hearing someone go, Leave it and yell leave it and I very much want to say something, but I've learned that when people wanna know another way, they'll most likely find me.

Which I hope they can find me or someone similar because it is out there. but again, positive training is this much of the market and the quick fix training is this much of the market. It's definitely an uphill battle, but that's okay. I'm happy to be on the side of it.

JoJo (34:56)
I'm glad you're out there having that battle on behalf of all the dogs.

Brooke Fagel (34:59)
absolutely. A very fun fact, a lot of the aversions have actually been banned in Europe. You no longer can train with an e collar in Europe at all. They have banned all aversion training.

JoJo (35:11)
spot on.

Angie (35:12)
That's telling.

Brooke Fagel (35:13)
Good

Angie (35:13)
Yeah.

Brooke Fagel (35:13)
job.

Angie (35:14)
Well, Brooke, It's been so great to have you. What would you like everyone to how can they find you?

Brooke Fagel (35:21)
well I'm personally really excited because now I know and hopefully all my own personal crew, dogs, vet needs. I have two lovely humans that I can go to in Boulder, which I'm very grateful for. you can find me Majestic Dog Training. I pick that name because there was only one other one. So hopefully Majestic Dog Training is is easy to find. I'm all over social media. and

Anything you can possibly need or want, feel free to send me a message. I'm happy to make any video you can ever need if it helps you at least get the information that you need for your pup and Just to know that whatever is going on with your dog, even if they're jumping, that when we train them a couple things inside the house and outside of the house, there's ways of helping regulate their nervous system in the environment that they live in and better understanding their environment.

Angie (36:11)
Very good. do you have a website? Do you have a URL?

Brooke Fagel (36:15)
I do to majesticdogtraining dot com. Easy peasy.

Angie (36:18)
And that is

your your social handle too, right? People can find you there.

Brooke Fagel (36:22)
Yes,

every everything is majestic dog training, YouTube, Instagram, my website, all Google, all the things.

Angie (36:31)
Nice, nice.

JoJo (36:32)
And if you guys

don't jump on there for anything other than seeing the gorgeous pictures of her pack of dogs,

Angie (36:38)
Yeah.

JoJo (36:38)
just do that. It just gorgeous.

Angie (36:42)
Yep. Amazing. Well thanks, Brooke, so much. We appreciate you and we'll talk to you soon.

JoJo (36:47)
Take care.

Brooke Fagel (36:47)
Thank

you, thank you so much for having me.