Angie (00:00)
Welcome back to Tails of Truth, where we tell the truth about veterinary medicine. I'm Dr. Angie, and this is my co-host and veterinary nurse, Extraordinaire Jojo. And today we're gonna be talking about the mRNA vaccines that have been rolled out for pets. Super controversial.

JoJo (00:17)
there's a lot of fear mongering going around. And I use the word mongering because it's a little intense.

Angie (00:23)
my gosh, I know. You guys, when you hear something like one way or the other that something is, gonna kill your pet or I don't know, I just just don't. Just don't listen to that.

JoJo (00:33)
That would be terrible business

to roll out something that just kills every animal.

Angie (00:37)
Right. And I'm also not saying I'm going to adopt it right away. I don't adopt things quickly.

JoJo (00:42)
I no,

I'm just saying I don't like the way social media can self fear and how quickly I mean it is it's like a it's a fire. Like it just spreads.

Angie (00:53)
It is a fire.

Yes.

JoJo (00:55)
Misinformation. So maybe we can put some information in the misinformation.

Angie (01:01)
Yeah, well let's t let's chat about it. And I

JoJo (01:03)
Okay.

Angie (01:03)
will say I'm not a vaccine expert in the sense that I'm not an immunologist. This technology is relatively new to vaccine technology. this type of vaccine is relatively new. I mean, they've been working on this for a long, long time. And I think it has some major benefits. And I also understand why people are scared of it.

JoJo (01:24)
Well, I don't you think that fear started in the human world when we had COVID and I think we talked a lot about the mRNA vaccine when COVID was happening and that was just a big fear

Angie (01:35)
Yeah.

JoJo (01:36)
moment. And I wonder if that carries over into our animals.

Angie (01:38)
I think so. I yeah, absolutely. I think the distrust of vaccines has been heightened by our current administration and the whole MAGA movement. And I think

JoJo (01:52)
Huh.

Angie (01:53)
that our animals will suffer. I mean, we saw another veterinarian come on that has a massive following saying stop her directive was to stop vaccinating your pets. And as a result of

that type of advice, just like we're seeing with measles, like children are now dying of measles, a lot of pets are gonna die of vaccine preventable diseases.

JoJo (02:17)
Yeah, I love how Dr. Silver said it, which that episode dropped today, which is the twenty fifth of September, I think. he said something about, vaccines are a community responsibility. Like

it's a community conversation versus an individualized conversation in many ways.

Angie (02:30)
Yeah, we're managing the herd.

JoJo (02:32)
Mm-hmm.

Angie (02:32)
And so when you're getting vaccinated, you not only are you taking care of yourself, but you're like taking care of the herd. And so

that's why we try to if you can get vaccinated, you get vaccinated because not every every dog or cat can get vaccinated. there are reasons why some dogs or cats can be vaccinated. So we think of it in terms of the health of the herd and not the health of

JoJo (02:54)
Right. And

I think skepticism is healthy. I do think there's a level of healthy skepticism, but I think rather than jumping on a bandwagon of an all or nothing

Angie (03:05)
Yes.

JoJo (03:05)
situation, I think critical thinking is really important when it comes to vaccines.

Angie (03:11)
Yes. It's a red flag one way or the other. If

JoJo (03:14)
Mm-hmm.

Angie (03:15)
and and I I think veterinary medicine has been really guilty of denying the vaccine reactions that some pets have had.

JoJo (03:25)
absolutely. We've seen that

Angie (03:26)
And

JoJo (03:26)
firsthand.

Angie (03:27)
yes. And so that does happen. And so I want everyone to know that's listening to us, like, I know that. And so I I really try to put myself in the middle. And of course you have to decide for yourself what is right for you and your pet. But I just think that when we get to one extreme or the other, I think it's really dangerous. I just like these kids that are now

contracting measles and and losing their life as a result because our herd immunity has dropped to a point now where we just have regular outbreaks of a disease that we had eradicated previously.

JoJo (04:01)
And We are seeing that same thing in rabies The trend for the post exposure rabies in humans

Angie (04:06)
Yeah.

JoJo (04:07)
is just, it's, it's not a little curve. It's it's going up. And I'm noticing, I am hearing that a lot, that rabies is kind of the the trend right now to not vaccinate for. And

Angie (04:18)
Yes.

JoJo (04:20)
I'm like, whoa, that one

Angie (04:21)
Yeah.

JoJo (04:22)
scares me a little bit.

Angie (04:23)
Yeah. I really, I mean, I'm a minimalist with my cats when it comes to vaccines. They are definitely up to date on rabies. I did update their F V R C P too because I had a patient with panleukopenia and that scared me. And so I thought I would not want to take home any disease to my cats. And so I just made sure that they were up to date. But it scares me how many of my patients are now coming in contact with rabid wildlife.

JoJo (04:48)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Me either. I don't like it.

Angie (04:48)
I don't like it. So it and I

I look at people and I think, I'm trying to save your life too. Like if your dog or cat died, it would be awful. Because I can't save them from rabies, but we also can't save you either. And as veterinarians, we're public health officers and we are trying to save your life too. You just there's no do over from rabies. That's it.

JoJo (05:13)
Yeah,

and that's where it comes back to that community aspect. So we're gonna speak to our listeners as though they're all part of the community because they are. So maybe

Angie (05:22)
Yes.

JoJo (05:23)
one, let's talk about which vaccines have rolled out. I think it's a rabies for dogs and

Angie (05:26)
Yeah.

JoJo (05:27)
cats.

Angie (05:27)
Let me okay, I've got to pull everything up because it's so Merck is the Merc is the manufacturer

JoJo (05:35)
huh.

Angie (05:35)
and they have rolled out Arabies

Okay, so they did a influenza for dogs, the H3N2, which is not a vaccine I use a lot anyways. they did a Nobivac F-E-L-V.

JoJo (05:49)
Which is a feline leukemia.

Angie (05:50)
Yep. And then they did maybe there's a separate one.

JoJo (05:56)
I think they did a three year rabies for cats and dogs.

Angie (05:59)
Yeah.

JoJo (06:00)
Which I think there are some things that we can talk about in that. One is I see it being interchanged, which maybe you can speak to once we figure out which vaccines these are, is RNA versus S A RNA. And they're being interchanged in what's being presented.

Angie (06:16)
Right. it's a similar technology as the COVID vaccine, but it's not the same. And so probably if you're a scientist that studies vaccines, it probably feels like a completely different vaccine in terms of the actual technology. okay, so let's just start here. Other vaccine technology, like the the vaccines I've used my whole career,

can be really kind of simplified down into modified live vaccines. That's where we take the virus and we we modify it. So we think, okay, this probably can't infect anybody. And then

JoJo (06:49)
Is it like microdosing?

Angie (06:51)
No, it's not like microdosing. It's just that we've made the virus so hopefully it can't infect your animal. But maybe if your animal has an immune compromised state, then it could infect your animal. So we have modified live vaccines and then we have killed vaccines, and with the killed vaccines, we're killing the the virus.

And we're just trying to help your body along by saying, here, I'm gonna give an adjuvant. Here's an immune stimulator. That's what makes you feel poorly. And we're gonna kind of hope that that works. I mean, and it does. We have a lot of, science to prove that it does. But what's nice about the mRNA vaccines or the SARNA vaccines is that you don't need that adjuvant.

To tell your immune system to make the big response. And for vaccine skeptics, and I mean, just even common sense skeptics, it's the adjuvant. When you look at all the ingredients in a vaccine, you're like, I don't want that.

and so what's great about this new technology is that they aren't having to use that adjuvant because the protein that they're injecting is basically telling your cells to

make that protein very temporarily so that your body can have an immune response against it and create antibodies. Which I don't know, I think I did a really bad job of explaining that,

JoJo (08:10)
I don't think the technology around vaccines is easy to explain.

Angie (08:15)
It's not, is it? It's hard to dumb it down.

JoJo (08:17)
it's very heady.

Angie (08:19)
at the end of the day

JoJo (08:20)
it the average person's not gonna go read those reports and

Angie (08:22)
Yeah. Right.

JoJo (08:24)
try to sift through what actually it's saying.

Angie (08:27)
We're trying to get your pet to make antibodies. And I always I always think of antibodies like this, because they're like little proteins that are very specific to an antigen. So let's say it's flu, and their antibodies to the flu are gonna know that very particular type of flu. And so let's say when we give your pet a rabies vaccine, then your pet's body is creating antibodies.

to rabies. And so if your pet were to come in contact with rabies, these guys are there and they're gonna neutralize the rabies so your pet doesn't become in

JoJo (08:59)
That's a little army.

Angie (09:00)
yeah, the little army, the little peace army. And so that's when we check titers or we check antibody levels, we're checking to see are these guys still there and ready to neutralize this virus? Shall your pet come in contact with it?

And so what's different with this self-amplifying RNA vaccine is that you still get these guys made, but it's talking your body into making the protein temporarily so that

your body can make the antibodies to it.

JoJo (09:35)
So which is where

people might be getting scared 'cause the story is as going into the DNA and changing the DNA to battle this disease So they're afraid of changing the DNA?

And some of what I read it doesn't even access the DNA. It's staying in the for lack of a better word, the exterior part of the cell. like the external layer, not the nucleus.

Angie (09:56)
Right. It's not entering the part of your cell that makes DNA. So it's not actually changing it. But I can see why that might be scary. And the worry

JoJo (10:05)
Yeah.

Do you want an injection that might change your DNA and make you rabid and aggressive and neurologically dysfunctional? No, that feels scary.

Angie (10:17)
Right. I know. I know. I know it does. And that's that's not what's happening and people are really worried, well then what if we're shedding these proteins? And so they are looking at that. When I say they, people that are studying these vaccines, the studies are looking at the the protein shedding. So the protein that we're asking the body to make, we're looking to see is it being shed? And they can't find any evidence.

That it is.

JoJo (10:46)
What would be the significance if we were shedding it? That we're spreading disease?

Angie (10:49)
You know

Yeah, I mean, th 'cause it's only a small part. It's not like we're asking the pets' bodies to make rabies and then they're gonna shed rabies and then everyone's gonna get rabies. It's asking the body to make a part of that. I can't figure out a way for it to be any safer. It's like we actually are just leveling up 'cause now we're not using adjuvants. We don't need to use all the same types of preservatives.

We don't

need as much viral load particles. So it seems like overall we would have less vaccine reactions.

JoJo (11:23)
Well, was there a bovine particle that's in other ones? Or I wasn't sure what what

Angie (11:27)
Mm.

JoJo (11:27)
animal, but it which increases allergic responses, which are animals are g seeming to be more allergic to more proteins. So

Angie (11:34)
Right. So purevax, what I use and what I've always used my whole career for cats, uses bovine serum in their vaccine. And so basically with these new SARNA vaccines, so self-amplifying RNA vaccines, they don't need to use so much of that. So overall, might we see less allergic reactions to vaccines?

JoJo (11:58)
But we don't know yet. So if

Angie (12:00)
But we don't know yet.

JoJo (12:01)
so that's that's like the the con if we're gonna be really honest about where we're at and what we know. I mean

Angie (12:07)
Yeah.

JoJo (12:08)
it the studies do feel they need to be longer, but I they were longer than two weeks, which is kind of some of the misinformation that's out there. Canada's been

Angie (12:14)
They were longer. I know.

JoJo (12:18)
using the vaccine since twenty twenty four. So we're almost at the

Angie (12:20)
Right.

JoJo (12:21)
well, we're not almost, we're like still six months away from

A three year in the world. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Angie (12:25)
Yeah. But they did do in the world, yeah. I was gonna say they

did do three year tests. And I personally, first of all, I'm super attached to the vaccine line I use. So

I yeah, I

JoJo (12:35)
Yeah, you've loved it. Yeah.

Angie (12:37)
cause it used to be Merial and now it's BI, but I have been using those vaccines like my whole entire career. So it will take a lot for me to go away from those. But if in a few years we find out

These are way safer. We see less side effects. I already don't see a lot of vaccine side effects as it stands. but if someone said this is way better, then I would switch over. But I am not an early adopter of almost anything. I

JoJo (13:08)
Well that's so fair. And I think that's really reasonable. why stop using what's working well?

Angie (13:13)
Yeah.

JoJo (13:14)
But I think there's a lot of clinics that are not using what's working well because it's pricier. I think.

Angie (13:19)
But don't you

think these R and A vaccine or A R and

JoJo (13:21)
They have

to be pricier.

But I

Angie (13:23)
Yeah.

JoJo (13:23)
here's another problem I do have with it that I do want to name.

I never like when a trial comes out or a paper comes out and it's it's labeled as peer reviewed, because I think the USDA did review this, but it's put on by the manufacturer. So Merck funded the trial. And I don't like when that happens. It makes me feel very hesitant and distrusting.

Angie (13:47)
So who should fund the trial?

JoJo (13:48)
an unbiased third party.

Angie (13:50)
Right. I think this is this is the hard part. I would like someone who knows more about this. We who could we have on the show to talk

JoJo (13:57)
We should have a Canadian. Who why'd they adopt it so early?

Angie (14:00)
Yeah.

Of like, okay, so so Merck makes has this technology and they want to get it out there because of course. And so they do all these studies. Cause like who's supposed to pay for this studies? I

and I'm asking it's it rhetorically.

JoJo (14:14)
Yeah, no, that's fair. No, that's a really

rational question. I I cannot like something and not I don't have a solution.

Angie (14:21)
Right. Yeah.

No, it's rhetorical. I don't expect you to know the answer.

JoJo (14:23)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I d

I don't I don't know the answer to that. But also I'm like who are the people that are adopting this new technology, right off the bat? Like what's that motivation?

Angie (14:32)
Well, do you think the clinics that use Merck and those are their vaccines? 'Cause Nobivac like that's a commonly

used line. And so I wonder if

JoJo (14:39)
And they just transition

over. So those veterinarians are having to have that conversation about the transition to the new vaccines, because that's what their rep is probably bringing to

Angie (14:48)
Yeah.

JoJo (14:49)
their clinics now. But you

Angie (14:50)
Well, I mean, not

to not to give any like more fuel to like the veterinary skepticism fire, but like this is what happens. Like reps come in and they'll be like, let me give you a screaming good deal on this. We think this is better technology. Let me give you a good deal because I want you to try it out.

JoJo (15:09)
Yeah, I'll give you a free tray

Angie (15:11)
I'll give you a free tray, which is still not that expensive when it comes to a a tray of rabies vaccines.

But I don't know. I think a lot of veterinarians are gonna take a beat. Unless it's a, you know what they'll do? It's gonna be a corporate practice that doesn't get to decide. Yeah. Because I can.

JoJo (15:27)
you're so right. That's right, because you

don't have choice of what you're

Angie (15:33)
Mm.

JoJo (15:34)
bringing to your clients. Like you in an independent clinic could carry both if you wanted.

Angie (15:38)
Yeah. We could give the choice. I can't imagine being like, sure, let's just hop on this right now. No, no. We

JoJo (15:45)
Even for a good deal. Yeah, yeah.

Angie (15:49)
one of the things that makes a clinic safe is that we know our products. Like all the nurses and the nurse assistants, like we know our vaccines really well.

And so you have to have a very good reason to insert a new product in when you have a privately owned practice. But I wonder will they go to VCA or Banfields?

JoJo (16:12)
Yeah, that your aha is spot on. That that's how it gets adopted. but

Angie (16:15)
Yeah. That's how it gets adopted.

JoJo (16:18)
the problem is like I said, it's like fire right now, the conversation out there. And so

Angie (16:23)
Yeah.

JoJo (16:23)
in your independent practice, there's gonna be a bump in skepticism about why do you need to vaccinate my pet? Because they're just getting that stop vaccinating your pets. They're trying to kill your pets.

And I'm not exaggerating. That's I mean these are these are these

Angie (16:38)
I know you're not exaggerating.

JoJo (16:40)
are vets saying this.

Angie (16:42)
I know. It's so disappointing. It's so

disappointing

JoJo (16:45)
Mm.

Angie (16:46)
because all I can think about how much loss of life there will be because of of those claims. It's just it's sad. I hate it. It's like we've come all this way and I can make it so that your puppy doesn't die of parvo virus. I can prevent your animal from getting rabies. I can prevent all of these things and

we're not gonna be able to have that opportunity to do that.

JoJo (17:09)
I do wanna say have the dialogue with your veterinarian instead of just assuming the worst.

Angie (17:15)
Well, okay, here's my other point. If you got the COVID vaccine, which honestly most people did.

JoJo (17:23)
Mm-hmm. It took me a while.

Angie (17:24)
I if you got the COVID vaccine.

Right. You were not an early adopter. But most people got the COVID vaccine. And I think, obviously I don't have the data to back it up, but I'm pretty sure the COVID virus itself was more harmful to people's long term health than the vaccine. And so it was like we've done this massive experiment where a

bunch of people got COVID vaccines. And I mean, for a long time now we've had this COVID vaccine and so far they keep making it and people keep getting

JoJo (17:57)
Yeah, you know, but I don't know

many people who continue to get it. Like can no that

Angie (18:02)
you don't? Yeah.

JoJo (18:03)
continue to have their annual COVID vaccine.

Angie (18:06)
Right.

JoJo (18:06)
Some of my friends who have more, immune diseases do. Yeah,

Angie (18:12)
Right.

JoJo (18:14)
that's interesting. But

Angie (18:16)
'Cause I think the long

term effects of the actual virus it's it's worse than the vaccine. And I I don't think a lot of people were injured by this vaccine.

JoJo (18:24)
No. And then there was the field of the COVID deniers that the disease itself doesn't exist. So I wonder if that's kind of where we're headed, a little bit of like vaccines are not

Angie (18:34)
Yeah.

JoJo (18:35)
necessary because we haven't seen the disease in so long. we don't

Angie (18:39)
Right. Yeah, it's like measles.

JoJo (18:41)
have rabies, old yeller, right? That's what we grew up on. Like, don't want my dog to have that. You know, but our kids don't know about old yeller.

Angie (18:47)
Right.

Right. Right.

JoJo (18:51)
And so they're probably like, What's

this rabies? I don't really know what rabies is. That's been eradicated for

Angie (18:54)
Right. Yeah, all I know is

JoJo (18:56)
so long. I mean, it's not eradicated, but it's in control.

Angie (18:59)
Yeah, it was more in control.

JoJo (19:02)
Well, n I mean, we're I mean it's getting out of control that I saw that they're dropping their little rabies blocks for like raccoons and stuff. You know, that's how they do it. They drop it out in the wild and they hope everybody

Angie (19:11)
Yeah.

JoJo (19:12)
comes and eats up some of whatever it is they drop and get some community

Angie (19:15)
Yeah.

JoJo (19:16)
control.

Angie (19:17)
Get some community control. But hopefully we did an okay job of discussing the mRNA vaccine. I know I like stumbled

JoJo (19:23)
Yeah, that's what we're here for.

Angie (19:25)
all over like it's also Friday morning. We're both very tired. But yeah.

JoJo (19:30)
Mm-hmm. But that's okay. That's what we're here for. The conversation.

I think that's what we do best.

Angie (19:35)
Yeah, well let us know what you think of the mRNA or the SARNA vaccine and would you get this for your pet? What if we could tell you that it was way safer than all of our other vaccine technology? And our vaccine technology is pretty safe. Would you get it? I wanna know what you think. And I I know there are gonna be people that are gonna be really mad. So I'll I'll listen to that too.

JoJo (19:57)
mad at y

at you that you were pro vaccine? Okay. Yeah. Yeah, they will be.

Angie (20:01)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'll have to

I have to turn in my holistic vet card or integrative vet card or whatever.

JoJo (20:09)
I didn't hear you say adopt a new technology. I heard you say be open to it,

Angie (20:14)
Yeah.

JoJo (20:14)
be skeptical. The both and you do both.

Angie (20:18)
Yeah. I'm pretty excited

about the technology personally, especially

for kitties.

JoJo (20:23)
because that is a holistic approach because we still do need to vaccinate on

Angie (20:27)
Yes.

JoJo (20:27)
a individualized, case by case, risk assessed situation.

Angie (20:31)
Absolutely. Okay. Well, let us know what you think, and we'll see you next time.

JoJo (20:37)
Take care.

Angie (20:38)
Bye.