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Tails of Truth: The Truth about Veterinary Medicine
Welcome to Tails of Truth, the podcast where holistic veterinarian Dr. Angie Krause and her co-host, veterinary nurse JoJo, bring you candid, light-hearted conversations about pet health, veterinary medicine, and everything in-between. Whether you're a pet parent or a veterinary professional, this is your judgment-free space for real answers, practical problem-solving, and the kind of grounded guidance that helps you advocate confidently for the animals you love.
From integrative treatments and preventive care to hot-button topics, tough diagnoses, and the emotional reality of pet parenting, we cover it all with clinical expertise, empathy, open minds, and curiosity. This show takes the discussion beyond the exam room and elevates the way we care for animals.
Make yourself a cup of tea and press play. This is the kind of exchange you'd want to have with a trusted friend who just happens to be a veterinarian. We're so glad you're here!
Tails of Truth: The Truth about Veterinary Medicine
Dignity in Death. What Vet Med Teaches Us About Dying
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
It’s okay to die. Dr. Angie Krause and veterinary nurse JoJo get personal in this episode about dignity in death and how differently veterinary and human medicine approach the end of life.
Speaking from their own experiences with loss, they explore why vets have the end-of-life conversation so many people never get in their end-of-life, and why our culture treats death as a failure to delay at all cost.
Along the way, they answer questions many pet parents quietly carry. Will my dog or cat pass peacefully in their sleep? What does a natural death really look like? Is it okay to say goodbye before my pet is suffering? How do vets decide whether chemo is worth it? What if my beliefs don’t allow euthanasia?
Dr. Angie shares how she built her own relationship with euthanasia after growing up in a family that didn’t believe in it. Together they talk about quality of life tools, in-home euthanasia, and why grief, especially the loss of a dog or cat, so often has nowhere to go.
This is a tender, deeply personal conversation about the one universal experience every being shares.
Key Takeaways
- Veterinary medicine treats a terminal diagnosis as a conversation about options, comfort, and what comes next. Human medicine seems to often avoid that conversation.
- In vet med, cancer treatment that causes significant side effects for a short gain is generally not the standard of care. Comfort is part of the decision.
- Humane euthanasia is a gift. It spares pets prolonged suffering, and it spares families caregiving they can’t sustain.
- A “natural death” rarely means a peaceful passing in sleep. For most degenerative diseases, that isn’t how it plays out.
- Quality of life tools exist because it's difficult to see your pet clearly. Everyone bargains in grief.
- Choosing euthanasia before suffering peaks can feel better than expected, not guilt-inducing.
- When beliefs rule out euthanasia, there are still more humane, comfortable ways to support a dying body.
- Grief has no timeline, and pet loss grief deserves the same space as any other loss.
- Talking openly about death is not insensitive. It changes the care, and it changes the goodbye.
Soundbites
“It’s kind of like the strangest gaslighting.” — Dr. Angie
“Why do we have to give suffering to prolong suffering?” — JoJo
“I probably diagnose something terminal every week.” — Dr. Angie
“This is a place where I feel like in animal medicine we’re winning.” — JoJo
"We are all going to die. I mean, I don’t know how you can have a more universal experience.” — Dr. Angie
“Your dog dies, your cat dies, nobody seems to care.” — JoJo
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Please subscribe and review! xoxo Dr. Angie & JoJo
Angie (00:00)
Welcome back to Tails of Truth, where we tell the truth about veterinary medicine. I'm Dr. Angie, and this is my co-host and veterinary nurse, Extraordinaire Jojo. And today we want to talk about dignity in dying. And we're all having our own experiences right now. I feel like in my life, everyone's dad is dying. Your dad is dying.
JoJo (00:20)
Mine included.
Angie (00:21)
My girlfriend's dad is dying. Like kind of the same timeline.
And it's been really hard to watch our medical system for both of you. and to contrast it to veterinary medicine and how painfully unprepared medical professionals are to talk to people about their impending death and to talk to family members about the patient's impending death.
JoJo (00:45)
Yeah, I kinda it's been interesting to experience this on the human side versus the animal side. This is a place where I feel like in animal medicine we're winning. We
Angie (00:54)
Yes.
JoJo (00:54)
I just think we do a better job in
Angie (00:56)
Mm-hmm.
JoJo (00:56)
having the conversations, in setting expectations, in letting the suffering end.
Yeah, I think we just do a better job. Human medicine is I have ideas of why it is what it is. So I wonder if I just say it. I mean I think it's I I
Angie (01:12)
Yeah. I'm sure he did it.
JoJo (01:14)
think on the human side it's more of a religious belief system in which the human life is valued more
There's more religious implications to end life or end suffering. I
Angie (01:25)
Mm, mm.
JoJo (01:27)
I think that's what the undertone is. There's some kind of moral value attachment that we don't have on the animal side.
Angie (01:34)
To staying alive.
JoJo (01:35)
Yeah, because I think it's rare on the animal side that somebody will not euthanize because of a religious belief. But it's a
Angie (01:42)
Mm.
JoJo (01:42)
hundred percent on the human side.
Angie (01:45)
Yeah. Well, I feel like not only can we not end suffering like we can in animals and peoples. We can't do that. I mean, in a couple states you can, but I I'd say overall,
JoJo (01:54)
Ours included.
Angie (01:56)
yes, ours included. But I feel like the conversations that medical professionals like emergency clinicians, I'm watching with Tammy's dad.
All of the specialists he's seen, the pulmonologist, and he has end stage cancer. And no one has sat him down and said, Hey, this is gonna end your life. No one has said that. And so this whole time they've been thinking, well, there still might be a treatment. There still might be a treatment. And when my mom was dying when I was in vet school a long, long time ago, she was in the hospital with stage four melanoma. It was everywhere. She was in so much pain.
And no one ever came into her room and said, Hey Lisa, you're dying. Can we talk about how we would like this to go? Because I have that conversation on a weekly basis. I probably diagnose something terminal every week. And I have to say, your cat or dog is dying. This is what it's gonna look like next. Here are our options.
And it's unlikely that any treatment we are going to do is going to make a difference.
JoJo (02:59)
I'm tearing up.
'Cause I just want that for my dad because the hope of what can't be
Angie (03:11)
Yeah.
JoJo (03:12)
is so frustrating to me.
And I think it's hard to have a medical background to be reading the reports and just being like I just feel like I'm a constant bearer of overwhelm and bad news because
Angie (03:25)
Yeah.
JoJo (03:26)
the medical community is not doing it.
Angie (03:29)
No.
JoJo (03:30)
it's interesting, it's an interesting journey to navigate when I feel like in human medicine.
For cancer patients, my dad has stage four pancreatic cancer with metastasis to the liver. And everybody keeps telling him 12 months. And I just don't even understand where they're pulling that from and why. I don't know if it's to give hope. And so like with animals, we can't do that, right? The animal doesn't care. Truly. Truly
Angie (03:57)
Yeah, no.
JoJo (03:59)
does not care.
We sustain animal life for us.
Angie (04:03)
Mm.
JoJo (04:04)
The animal's gonna do what it's gonna do and whatever's next, which none of us knows, right? it's just life and death, period.
Angie (04:10)
Right. Yeah.
JoJo (04:12)
yeah, I don't know. there's so much I could say about it. It's just painful to watch.
Angie (04:17)
Well, when my mom was dying and,
I didn't have the medical background. I had just started veterinary school. It was, I felt like I was in this limbo place.
JoJo (04:27)
Uh-huh.
Angie (04:27)
And I was alone in it. And I'm like, are we hoping that she's gonna get better? Is she ever gonna come home? Is she ever leaving the hospital? And the fact that no one talked to me. I remember one time there was a nurse that came in and she was a night nurse and she looked at me and my sister. We were by my mom's bedside.
And she said, My mom died too. And I remember looking at her, thinking, wait, is my mom gonna die? You know, like it was,
JoJo (04:56)
yeah.
Angie (04:56)
and I it's like, of course I knew that she was, but I didn't know. I was in this place of like we just kept transfusing her and transfusing her, but no one was saying, Hey guys, you know, it's 2003.
We don't have treatment for stage four melanoma. We just don't. And now your mom's in so much pain and she's in DIC and we can't keep her with enough blood. This is the end. But they don't say that. They just keep looking
JoJo (05:24)
They don't. What do you think that's about?
Angie (05:26)
because our culture cannot allow dignity in dying. It's not okay to die. It is seen as a failure. You have to delay it at all cost. We're not allowed
JoJo (05:37)
Yeah.
Angie (05:37)
to die.
JoJo (05:39)
That's what I keep asking. I'm like, what the intensity of the chemo that they offered him, which he started yesterday, the intensity of it. I'm like, why do we have to give suffering to prolong suffering? The end result is the same. I mean, they did make it clear, this chemo's not to save your life. That's not what's happening. We hope to shrink the tumors enough that you're less symptomatic going forward. But I'm like
the number of symptoms to go through to be less symptomatic for two more months, maybe?
Angie (06:05)
For a very short time.
JoJo (06:06)
What are we doing?
Angie (06:08)
What are we doing?
JoJo (06:10)
I don't I don't understand it.
Angie (06:12)
makes no sense. And, in veterinary medicine, we talk about, okay, your dog got diagnosed with a hemiangiosarcoma. We have these chemo options. Maybe at best it could give them an extra six weeks, but we actually don't even really know. and we walk through each option and we talk about the side effects and we talk about, we don't do chemo that is going to cause significant side effects. We we don't use those treatments. And
We actually allow our pets to die for the most part. We we allow them
JoJo (06:39)
Yeah.
Angie (06:40)
to do that. And I don't know why we don't support people's deaths. Like
JoJo (06:45)
I
I don't understand it either. It's really I mean, the word dying. I said it my my dad is dying and that like just was the wrong thing to say.
Angie (07:00)
Yeah.
JoJo (07:01)
It's just I don't know
Angie (07:03)
Yeah.
JoJo (07:04)
and I it's not an insensitive thing. To me, I feel like it's a really sensitive thing. Like the conversations look different. The care looks different. you know what? Eat your ice cream.
Angie (07:14)
Yeah.
JoJo (07:15)
Like like giving the dog a steak. I would not give your dog a steak if they have months left.
Angie (07:20)
Right. Yeah. Or like in in
JoJo (07:21)
But, you know, I don't know, it
Angie (07:25)
humans case, don't do this for your dog, but take a gummy.
JoJo (07:28)
it's been an interesting path
and this is where death doulas, this is beautiful. I got certified as a death doula in animal medicine. I've never used it, but I've had ideas around it. But on the human side, I just think they're a really great gift, a bridge from the living to what's next.
Angie (07:44)
Yeah.
JoJo (07:45)
And I just I don't know. I don't know that there's many of them out there.
Angie (07:48)
Well, it's the one thing we know it's for sure gonna happen. We are
all going to die. I mean, I don't know how you can have a more universal experience.
JoJo (07:59)
Yeah.
Angie (07:59)
It is it's going to happen to all of us. And so why it's not more honored? It's like, we don't talk about it. We don't want to admit that you're dying. I remember one time I just looked at my mom and I'm like, I'm not ready for you to die.
But until then she never looked at me and said, Hey, I'm dying. We need to talk about this. There was no conversation. it's kind of like the strangest gaslighting. And everyone's like, well, you just gotta keep praying and hold out hope. And you're like, wait, for what?
JoJo (08:24)
I've heard two, I've heard two different sides on that.
and I'm not shaming religious people at all. I grew up in religion. my family is very religious. I've heard the side of we're praying for a miracle, which it gives me a really sour yuck. And then because there's not a miracle here, it's less than *Correction 3%* of people who go five years.
After this kind of diagnosis, I mean, that's gonna have to be like my dad was the one worth this miracle. So I get really like kind of conflicted on that. But then I've also heard, well, God doesn't give you this disease unless He was ready for you to die. So the prayer is different then. So it's like there's always a way to make a justification for it. And I
Angie (09:03)
Yeah.
JoJo (09:03)
just wanna be, you're dying.
What do want to do? What does that look
Angie (09:06)
Yeah.
JoJo (09:07)
like? Are you suffering? I've already made it very clear. This has been happening. I've told my husband, give me Dilaudid. until I'm delirious. Let me die
Angie (09:17)
Ha ha ha
JoJo (09:19)
in delirium. It's so fun there. Like, just
Angie (09:21)
Yeah.
JoJo (09:25)
let me. That feels like dignified to me. Just let me let me be in love and like I love everybody. And pain is like, what is pain?
Angie (09:33)
Well, would you have a an assisted death? Like if you got a terminal diagnosis,
JoJo (09:36)
Hm, good question.
Angie (09:37)
would you I mean, we can do that here.
JoJo (09:39)
yeah,
a hundred
Angie (09:39)
interesting.
JoJo (09:40)
percent.
Angie (09:42)
Yeah. 'Cause then it it could be just so much more dignified and intentional and ceremonious. But this idea that we're like, don't
JoJo (09:52)
Yeah, you can have your famil
kinda like when Bodhi passed this year, right? It was like
Angie (09:55)
Yeah.
JoJo (09:56)
everybody was here. The timing,
Angie (09:57)
Yeah.
JoJo (09:58)
maybe he could have gone another week or something comfortably, maybe. And
Angie (10:03)
Mm-hmm. Maybe.
JoJo (10:05)
I think yeah, but the the I think the law is here that you have to be able to ask for it and swallow on your own.
Angie (10:13)
Okay.
JoJo (10:14)
I think those are the laws here. But I think it's only here and Washington, aren't those the only two states?
Angie (10:19)
Maybe Oregon, I'm not sure. but yeah, for sure Washington and definitely here. And I think it's a great thing to die with dignity and support. No.
JoJo (10:29)
Wouldn't most people choose that? Like,
I'm not looking forward to watching my dad waste away
Angie (10:37)
No.
JoJo (10:38)
or become a shell of himself. Like that's
Angie (10:40)
Yeah.
JoJo (10:40)
not how I want to remember him. And I'm not saying now's the time, but there will
Angie (10:44)
Mm-hmm.
JoJo (10:45)
be a time in which we're just sustaining not I don't even want to say life, we're just sustaining existence.
Angie (10:51)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
JoJo (10:53)
And it's interesting to watch
that. and I do see this with cats and dogs too. there are people that have an inability to let go and have this like really intense attachment and fear of suffering. And they keep their their animal going uncomfortably long. But I but I don't
Angie (11:11)
Uncomfortably. Yeah.
JoJo (11:13)
know a veterinarian that's not having the conversation when it's getting to that point.
Angie (11:16)
Yes. Yes. I know.
JoJo (11:17)
But uncomfortably long.
And I guarantee you that cat or dog is like, now please, please now, today.
Angie (11:24)
Yeah. Ready to get out of here.
JoJo (11:28)
that thing I just did, that was to go.
I think we do that to them sometimes, but more often than not, I think people see it as a gift.
Angie (11:34)
I think so too. But I think that people are really afraid of their own death. And so as long as they don't have to think about it or they don't have to think about other people's mortality, then it can be something that's more passive. And I think we can take a more active role in our dying process, depending on how we die. But I think most people die of degenerative processes like
Cancer or like
Alzheimer's most people die that way. and so I think being able to take an active role in that is
JoJo (12:05)
Yeah,
that's interesting because that also came up too, 'cause I did have the DNR conversation with my dad because last week I flew down there because he has cancer, which they didn't even explain this to him. Well, he doesn't understand that he has pulmonary embolisms and an embolism like a mesenteric one and a D V T and why that's happening. You know, there's nobody
Angie (12:26)
Yeah.
JoJo (12:26)
who's sitting down and saying, This is what's happening, this is the process. It's just
Angie (12:30)
Yeah.
JoJo (12:30)
and by the way, the emergency rooms.
Awful. The
Angie (12:33)
Aha.
JoJo (12:34)
hospital he was at. He's sitting in a lobby in a 1010 pane. not a lobby, but a hallway. Because there's just no rooms for him. Until four in
Angie (12:43)
my gosh.
JoJo (12:44)
the morning with embolisms
Angie (12:45)
Yeah.
JoJo (12:45)
that I'm like, don't get stressed.
Angie (12:48)
Like right.
JoJo (12:49)
and they found out they had him by some nurse freaking out and going to like, this man needs a room. He has this.
And she's like, what does he have? Like it came like by way of panic. And so later in the hospital, my stepmom's not worried about what's happening with him because she's like, Well, I deduced that nobody was panicking. So therefore, this must not be happening. And I'm like, Well, what a terrible breakdown in communication that
Angie (13:16)
Right.
JoJo (13:17)
you're looking at people's faces and reactions to deduce what's happening.
Angie (13:22)
Yeah.
JoJo (13:23)
Yeah. Our medical care system is a mess. It's a mess. So much better. We here.
Angie (13:26)
And that's why veterinary medicine is so much better.
We win. We talk
JoJo (13:34)
Yeah.
Angie (13:34)
about end of life care. We talk about diagnosis. Like you get it all from your GP too. Like
JoJo (13:41)
Mm-hmm.
Angie (13:41)
you get a lot, a lot of that comes from your general practitioner.
JoJo (13:46)
And I think we're only getting better and better and better. Cause now
Angie (13:48)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
JoJo (13:49)
we offer in home euthanasia and it's not always having to be a panic moment. we're having conversation around quality of life. We have tools to evaluate quality of life because as we all know it's really hard to have a
clear lens when it's your own animal. Like we all bargain in grief. It happens for all of us.
Angie (14:04)
It's really hard. Yeah.
all of us.
JoJo (14:10)
Yeah. And you know, Dr. Brooke Fowler, when we had her on, was one of my favorite conversations we had around this because I really appreciated that she doesn't push a really intense chemo or treatment regimen it was all
Angie (14:22)
Mm.
JoJo (14:22)
about having dignity in death.
Angie (14:24)
Yes. Yeah.
JoJo (14:25)
And
no shame on your end.
Angie (14:26)
No shame. No shame. It's okay to die. I wanna just
JoJo (14:30)
Yeah.
Angie (14:30)
scream that from the mountaintop so many times a day. I know, I know.
JoJo (14:32)
Well, we don't even allow ourselves to be sick, Angie. It's not when
I came to work for you, I'm like, what do you mean? Don't come in if my nose is running.
Angie (14:40)
Yeah.
JoJo (14:41)
I don't understand what you mean. We work through sickness. What do you mean? It
Angie (14:45)
Right.
JoJo (14:46)
was it it took me probably two years of working with you to really understand that. That it was
Angie (14:52)
Yeah.
JoJo (14:52)
okay to not always be working through pain.
Angie (14:57)
Right. We don't always need to be productive.
JoJo (14:58)
Well, 'cause as women we do that too. We have periods our whole life.
Angie (15:01)
Right. We're so used to like doing everything while bleeding. Yes.
JoJo (15:03)
Yeah, it's show up to work. And you
have a headache and you're hemorrhaging and like cramping. Go to surgery. You're on.
Angie (15:12)
Yeah.
JoJo (15:13)
You've got four back to backs.
Angie (15:15)
Right. Take an advil and move on.
JoJo (15:17)
Yeah, we're uncomfortable. And I wonder how it's gonna be when the suffering really starts for my dad.
Angie (15:23)
yeah. Like how it's gonna be for you or for him?
JoJo (15:27)
Mm, for everybody involved in decision making.
Angie (15:31)
Yeah.
JoJo (15:32)
Because hospice now is done in your home.
Angie (15:36)
Yeah.
JoJo (15:36)
If there is a capable human being in the home, then you don't get to go to hospice care. It's like they bring a bed to your living room.
Angie (15:45)
Mm-hmm. Even if you're on like a dilaudid pump. Okay. Just
JoJo (15:48)
Yeah. Yeah.
which is beautiful and not.
Angie (15:52)
Yeah, I remember when my mom was in hospice, I asked her, I was like, Do you wanna we can do this at home? And she was like, I don't wanna go home. That's what she
said to me. I don't wanna go home. Because I think she felt like she couldn't get enough care. She didn't wanna go home.
JoJo (16:08)
Yeah, I saw that happen last week at the hospital because it's a lot of stress for my stepmom. Because she's
Angie (16:13)
Yeah.
JoJo (16:14)
she's also has her own health conditions and has been very reliant on my dad for so many things and to put the weight of care all on her and she can't reach people when there's something happening and people don't return
Angie (16:25)
Right.
JoJo (16:26)
her call. It's constant, constant, constant advocacy
Angie (16:30)
Yes.
JoJo (16:31)
without understanding what's happening.
Angie (16:33)
Yeah.
JoJo (16:34)
it's bad.
Angie (16:35)
And I think that's how a lot of our clients feel with their patients as you know, as with their dogs and cats as they're dying, is like I can't take care of them. And that's why
JoJo (16:44)
Uh-huh.
Angie (16:45)
we have the gift of humane euthanasia. Is that
JoJo (16:48)
Mm-hmm.
Angie (16:49)
we don't have to put people in these situations just to prolong life for yeah.
JoJo (16:53)
Yeah, it's just prolonged existence or
hunting down the cure, basically, because I do feel that is true in human medicine that we do differently in animal medicine is we have answers for cancer. I feel like people get on a cancer mill, like a treadmill for cancer. Like you go here, here, here, here, here.
Angie (17:12)
Yeah.
JoJo (17:12)
And then each of those doctors can add to their statistics of like, well, we keep people alive for, twelve months with this treatment. Well, like with breast cancer.
We know how to cure breast cancer. You know, when I got on that mill of like really quick, I'm like, Yeah, I see the standard of care, but none of that makes sense for me.
Angie (17:28)
Right. Yeah. You struggled with that.
JoJo (17:30)
And then
I have to battle for what I want and bring
Angie (17:34)
Yeah.
JoJo (17:35)
in the research for what I want, but it it takes so much effort. But do they know how
Angie (17:39)
Yeah, absolutely.
JoJo (17:40)
to cure breast cancer? Yes, they know how to cure breast cancer, but do they know how to also impact your quality of life negatively in the process? Yeah, they do.
Angie (17:50)
Right.
Yes.
I remember when you were looking at those hormone blockers and you're like, This is no quality of life
JoJo (17:55)
I didn't take any
of them. I was like, I and every time I had to go in and have a battle of like why I'm not taking them.
Angie (18:02)
Yeah.
JoJo (18:03)
And like statistically speaking, couldn't I just lose weight and have less estrogen floating in my body? They're like, well, yeah. I'm like, how about we start there? But that took me having that conversation.
Angie (18:14)
Yes.
JoJo (18:15)
And people in my dad's situation just don't have the bandwidth to do all that research
Angie (18:21)
No.
JoJo (18:21)
or an advocate on their team. So
Angie (18:24)
Yeah.
JoJo (18:24)
Yeah.
It's messy. It's gonna be messy
Angie (18:27)
It is.
JoJo (18:27)
for a little bit here.
Angie (18:29)
It's gonna be yeah, it's painful. And I think cancer's a painful death.
Until it's not. I mean hopefully they can get a good pain protocol. Or, if he can have one of his complications, just take him peacefully, right?
JoJo (18:42)
That's
a terrible thing to say. I'll I mean, I can you imagine.
Angie (18:44)
But is
it see why do we think that's terrible? It's so
JoJo (18:49)
Yeah.
Angie (18:50)
in our culture. I hope your dad dies peacefully. And that
JoJo (18:54)
Right.
Angie (18:54)
feels terrible.
JoJo (18:55)
I mean I found myself thinking that I'm like, wow, what if last week had been the end?
Angie (19:00)
And it's the same way people say, I I just hope my dog just I just want them to die in their sleep. It's like what we all want. We just want it to be like a just a a peaceful passing. I look at people, I'm like, That's probably not gonna happen. I mean it does happen sometimes, but like
JoJo (19:13)
I know you really do say that.
That's not really how this disease plays out. It's so
Angie (19:16)
I do say that. Yeah, because
JoJo (19:18)
rare. Well, they also call it I just want them to have a natural death. I'm like, do you? That means they're just left for the predator. Everybody leaves them. A natural death
Angie (19:27)
Right.
JoJo (19:27)
is like not not pretty.
Angie (19:29)
It's not pretty.
JoJo (19:30)
I don't think that's what people mean when they say a natural death. I think they mean a peaceful death in their sleep.
Angie (19:35)
right.
Well, I wanna be ninety five and fall off a rock. I just want it Yes. Like I want it
JoJo (19:40)
interesting. Like 'cause you were out there climbing 'cause you're so strong still? Yeah, yeah.
Angie (19:45)
to be like, well, that was it.
JoJo (19:48)
It's so funny. Like I have such a fear of dying in a car accident. I don't know why. But a plane, every time I'm on a plane, I'm like, this went down. That might be a great way to go.
Angie (19:57)
No, I totally get it. Although like the adrenaline but I guess if I'm falling off a rock hundreds of feet down, that's also adrenaline at the end, right?
JoJo (20:04)
To me, that is
the worst. I have such a fear of heights. That the idea. Yeah, it's different. I don't know.
Angie (20:09)
But you're in a plane? You're a g but if you're in a plane.
JoJo (20:13)
I don't it makes no sense. For me, it's like drowning in the ocean or a plane going down. Rational.
Angie (20:19)
You're like
JoJo (20:19)
Okay, those will work for me. Car wreck falling off a cliff does not work for me. Please don't let it be that.
Angie (20:25)
Does not work. Okay.
JoJo (20:27)
Prolonged cancer death. I don't
Angie (20:29)
Mm.
JoJo (20:30)
want this. I don't want this for anybody.
Angie (20:34)
Well if you stay in Colorado you don't have to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Stick around.
JoJo (20:36)
That's true. That's motivation. And I can take a gummy.
Angie (20:41)
I I know.
JoJo (20:43)
Or two or three. Depending I can live in my land of Dululu.
Angie (20:49)
Someone's gonna be so mad that I'm laughing while we're talking about death. How dare I? How dare I?
JoJo (20:52)
yeah, for sure. Go back like
five minutes when we're both crying.
Angie (20:57)
Exactly. Yeah. Ex
JoJo (20:59)
Like gr
grief it's like I am learning because this is the first big grief for me. This
Angie (21:06)
yeah.
JoJo (21:07)
I mean, my dad has been a steady in my life. So this is this is a big one for me. And it's gonna be I can't even say. So you see, here we are crying again. Like I don't wanna say goodbye at all.
Angie (21:21)
No, we're never it's never we're never ready and it was never enough time when we like them, you know? Like
JoJo (21:25)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Angie (21:28)
it's never I know some people have really complicated relationships with their parents, but like, my god, I would I wanted my mom to live forever. Like you just are never ready to let go of your parent.
JoJo (21:40)
And I
want to say it's been such a gift to work here for you in this moment. And I'm forever grateful for that because I know you know. And you're just like nothing else matters in this time. And I really believe you,
So it's so sometimes people watching, you can go watch Dr. Rob Silver because Angie had to do it on her own. Just like when you got
Angie (22:01)
I did it.
JoJo (22:03)
the wrong product in your
shipment Angie was on her own. It's
Angie (22:07)
That was me.
JoJo (22:09)
I mean, yeah, nothing else matters except those moments.
Angie (22:14)
Those yeah. Sorry about the wrong products in the in the packages. And that happens every time I take over shipping. So yeah. So Well,
JoJo (22:20)
Yeah, that's okay.
I had another question real quick Angie that came up. Have you ever had somebody not do euthanasia for animals because
Angie (22:30)
Yeah,
JoJo (22:31)
of some religious belief or political standing or
Angie (22:35)
I grew up in a family that didn't believe in euthanasia. So I grew up in a family that has a guru in India that believed that if you euthanize a pet, you are taking away their karma because suffering relieves karma, according to this philosophy. And that
JoJo (22:53)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Angie (22:55)
that suffering was so sacred, which I mean I have my own opinions about that. It was really hard when my mom was dying. So everyone's like, my gosh, she's paying off so much karma. And I'm like, but right.
JoJo (23:04)
Ooh. Yeah.
Angie (23:06)
So it's just like which yeah, I have a and that could be a whole nother episode. But yeah, so I actually came from that. And as I became a veterinarian, I had to like develop my own relationship to euthanasia.
That had to be mine and not where I came from. so, yeah, I do have experience with that. And I remember I worked for a veterinary clinic. and the senior veterinarian pulled me aside and basically just wanted to let me know that the way my family did it was not cool. And
I at the time I was kind of like, I'm what do you I'm just like a kid. Like, what are you like? You know,
JoJo (23:44)
Yeah.
Angie (23:44)
I mean, I was doing my undergraduate, but I think he kind of just wanted to impart on me like we get to relieve a lot of suffering and it's, it's a much better way. and I understand why my family felt that way. And it's nothing I would choose.
So it's like when people come to me and have that belief, like, I don't want to do this, then basically I kick into the mode that we do with people where I'm like, okay, we basically need to keep your dog or cat on opioids for the rest of its li, and we talk about what that looks like. And you have to stop giving them fluids. You have to, there's certain ways to let the body die, which you probably know all about. that
is more humane and more comfortable. And so I I kind of can kick back into that mode, but it's very rare that I see that.
JoJo (24:29)
that's interesting. Well, and I think
Angie (24:30)
Yeah.
JoJo (24:31)
that's where I forgot about this. So you and I kinda land slightly different on the spectrum of suffering. And I would notice it when we go to house calls sometimes. I'm like, ooh, I hope that's happening this week. I hope we're euthanizing this week because I I don't want that dog to suffer the way it's going to. And you're like, no, it's got more time than that. Like your your
Angie (24:49)
Yeah.
JoJo (24:50)
meter of suffering and when it's time to say goodbye is a little bit more generous than mine.
And so I have a bigger fear of suffering, I think.
Angie (24:58)
Yeah.
And I also think that with every year I practice, that changes.
JoJo (25:04)
Mm.
Angie (25:05)
It actually moves closer to you.
And I've counseled more that way and I've started doing that more. Like when I let Dunny my last horse go, I did it before there was a big suffering. And that was the first time I tried that on.
And I mean, I would do it for people's pets because I I always trust that people know the right thing. for their own pets. But it was the first time I tried it on for mine, and I'm like, yeah, this is way better. But I thought I was gonna feel so much guilt. And I think some of that is probably comes from my childhood and the upbringing of like, well, you don't want to take this away from them. there was a purpose of suffering.
And I do think there's a purpose of suffering in that it's like helping you let go. You're like literally letting go. I think if you're dying of cancer, you're in so much pain and it's so uncomfortable that you're like, I'm ready to get out of here. And so it does serve a purpose, but we can also just get out of here in other ways too.
JoJo (25:54)
I feel like talking about human and animal, like the animal side, people are gonna be really understanding of the human side. I think people are gonna be a little bit angry with us. Or maybe, maybe
Angie (26:03)
yeah.
JoJo (26:04)
a little prickly or like challenged in their own belief. I hope. I mean, that's what conversations
Angie (26:09)
Yeah.
JoJo (26:10)
are for. And I'm not saying my way is the right way. And I know that my own religious baggage, and again, I'm not harping on religion in general. I'm talking from my own experience.
And how I grew up Like this is a societal difference. I guarantee this episode has no weight in other societies. Where death is honored and celebrated and
Angie (26:29)
Which society is that?
JoJo (26:30)
Well, I think the honoring is different when you're like with the body and like
putting it out to sea or having ceremonial exits.
Angie (26:40)
Yeah.
JoJo (26:41)
I think that is a little bit different. I mean, there's still grief always, but there's also a acceptance.
Angie (26:49)
Yes. That was hard for me after my mom died. I couldn't figure out what to do with the grief. And I noticed that the system we had for grief was like, I'm gonna bring you casseroles for a week. And then are you okay? You good? Yeah.
JoJo (27:03)
I noticed that too. And I'm like, wow,
first of all, we go to food first and I'm like, the man doesn't want to eat. Nobody
Angie (27:08)
Right.
JoJo (27:09)
wants to eat right now. And there's so much food coming in. but yes, as soon as the passing I've thought about that too. It's like, okay, well, how much time am I allowed to grieve? What does that look like? I'm just assuming I go
Angie (27:20)
Yeah.
JoJo (27:22)
to the funeral and then I'm back at work the next day. I don't I don't
Angie (27:25)
Yeah. I mean, that's what
our society does. There's no space.
I found space in her death anniversary. I found space in her birthday. Like I've had to make that own space. But there is no space in society. You just have to like, you just are you have you dealt with it? Are you good now? Did you you know,
JoJo (27:44)
Yeah.
Angie (27:44)
like it's crazy. And I felt it was really hard for me because I was just twenty-two. I felt like I was orbiting out by myself.
And I knew I was like, I can't just not deal with this. Like this,
JoJo (27:58)
Yeah.
Angie (27:58)
I have to put this somewhere. It was catastrophic for me. And I felt like if I really felt the grief that it might kill me. I felt so scared. And I didn't have a system or people to say, here's how you grieve. Take my hand. This is how you do it. We don't have that like ceremony. I mean, you have the
funeral or a wake or whatever, but that's actually so close to the death that you're in this logistics place.
JoJo (28:27)
It's the logistics piece that's so messing with me. Everything
Angie (28:29)
Yeah. Yeah.
JoJo (28:32)
is so logistical and practical and there's no time to just appreciate the moment. It's just constant planning. And I was like,
Angie (28:40)
Yeah.
JoJo (28:41)
yeah, how does anyone do a a celebration of life or anything in terms of it's just planning, planning, planning?
Angie (28:47)
yeah. Like I was so distraught at my mom's service I couldn't speak.
it just went by me and I was so dear in the headlights because they just do it so fast. Yes.
JoJo (28:55)
Well, and what a ridiculous expectation to ask
somebody who's so severely impacted by this loss to get up
Angie (29:04)
Yeah.
JoJo (29:04)
on a stage and speak.
Angie (29:07)
yeah.
JoJo (29:08)
I think the expectation of that, like I've already written my dad's eulogy. And
Angie (29:13)
You have.
JoJo (29:13)
then I was like, But I don't want to stand up in front of a room of strangers and read those intimate things.
Angie (29:20)
I know.
JoJo (29:21)
so I'm just gonna read it to him.
Angie (29:23)
Yeah.
JoJo (29:23)
Before
he passes and that's the gift in the long passing.
Angie (29:26)
That's really beautiful. when he dies, some days you're gonna be okay and then other days you're not, and it's gonna go on for a long time. it's kind of like a rest of your life process.
JoJo (29:37)
And this is where humans still maybe edge out animal medicine a little bit. your dog dies, your cat dies, nobody seems to care.
Angie (29:45)
I know right. There no.
JoJo (29:47)
Nobody.
It feels really, really lonely in that grief. And so we could improve
Angie (29:52)
It really does. You're in that.
JoJo (29:54)
there. Maybe we should leave on that. I just saw how long we've been talking about
Angie (29:58)
Yeah.
JoJo (29:59)
this. And maybe we should do have the dignity of letting people go. What?
Angie (30:05)
Have
the dignity of ending the episode.
JoJo (30:07)
Yes.
Angie (30:10)
Well, we would love to hear your thoughts on dignified death and what that looks like for people, for animals, or your experience. And I think that's it. Is there anything else you want to say, Jojo?
JoJo (30:23)
We'll end it there.
Angie (30:24)
Yeah. Okay. Talk to you soon. Sending everyone a hug.