Angie (00:00)
Welcome back to Tails of Truth, where we tell the truth about veterinary medicine. I'm Dr. Angie, and this is my co-host and veterinary nurse, Extraordinaire Jojo. And today we're gonna answer some user comments and questions. Hmm.

JoJo (00:16)
I know I

called it like questions and know it alls. I don't know.

Angie (00:19)
Okay. I love it.

JoJo (00:21)
Which is kind of mean, but some are kinda not

Angie (00:24)
Mm.

JoJo (00:25)
nice.

Angie (00:25)
They are kind of mean. People like to get really brave with their keyboards, so

JoJo (00:30)
Yeah, it's easy to do. And I say know at all because I think sometimes what I'm seeing is a trend in the comments is if somebody had one experience with their animal and it worked

Angie (00:41)
Mm.

JoJo (00:42)
out well for them, they suddenly are the expert and all animals should fit in that same mold.

Angie (00:47)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're just don't stay in their lane. They're driving in the wrong lane. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

JoJo (00:50)
No. You wanna start with a out of their lane and you can help

us bring it back into the lane. Okay,

Angie (00:58)
Let's get back in the lane.

JoJo (01:00)
but this one comes from our newsletter, which if you don't subscribe to our newsletter, you should.

Angie (01:05)
Yeah, go to our website, boulderholisticvet dot com. Because

JoJo (01:08)
Yeah.

Angie (01:08)
you have access to sales that you don't have access to. So yes. And good ones.

JoJo (01:11)
Sales, yeah. More intimate

conversations, sometimes a little bit more in depth. I don't know.

Angie (01:18)
Yeah.

JoJo (01:19)
Yeah, do it. Okay. This one was about hyperthyroidism. This particular

Angie (01:23)
In kitties.

JoJo (01:25)
newsletter, yes. And I'm gonna read all these in a fun tone because how I hear them in my brain. And this

Angie (01:32)
Okay.

JoJo (01:32)
is from somebody we'll just call her or him B. I'm not sure.

Angie (01:37)
Okay.

JoJo (01:39)
you have every single thing wrong about how my cat has hyperthyroidism or even a human. It's because the pituitary gland is not functioning a hundred percent and it's not a T4 total test you do. It's a full thyroid panel. Duh. Duh is mine. No, that's my that's my ad lib.

Angie (01:59)
she said duh? okay.

JoJo (02:04)
That comes across. Which includes a free T4 and a free T3 reverse. T3, both antibodies work. I don't that sentence doesn't make sense to me, but yes, animal and T4 is a useless test. What tells

Angie (02:20)
Hmm.

JoJo (02:20)
you the thyroid is working is a free T3 test. Get your stuff together, get it right, or get off the net for false information. B

Angie (02:31)
Yeah.

I wanna get it together. Okay.

JoJo (02:39)
Or just get off the net, which by the way,

this is a newsletter. It was not the net.

Angie (02:45)
Well, I mean, kind of it is like get on the

JoJo (02:46)
Whatever, get out of the inbox. So okay, Dr. Angie, clear this up.

Angie (02:53)
Okay, okay, well I'll be serious about it for just a minute, but I'm still gonna smile while I'm being serious. So I think what if I were to make the most generous assumption about what this woman or man or them, whatever they're talking about, is that how we diagnose thyroid disease in dogs.

Is different from cats, is different from humans. And so I have thyroid disease, I have hypothyroidism, but I don't have immune-mediated hypothyroidism. So there are more tests that we look at when I'm managing mine than I would for cats, because the reason I am hypothyroid, have an underactive thyroid.

It's different from the reason most of my canine patients have an underactive thyroid. And most cats have an overactive thyroid. So they get their thyroid cells, they have too much thyroid tissue. Sometimes it can actually be cancer. So I think what this person is doing is taking how they probably monitor their own thyroid, which is great.

And then applying it to a completely different disease process in cats. And so I I guess I would encourage them to not try to extrapolate from one species to the next. And I don't have any experience with hyperthyroidism in people, Graves' disease, but I imagine they look at similar things.

For for people. Now, some cats we do look at a free T4, free T three when we're unsure, but that's really pretty rare. Most of the time cats are hyperthyroid. We see it in a T four, and that's super easy. And so, yeah, it's just not the same. I think we're just confused about thyroid disease in dogs and cats.

JoJo (05:01)
Does it have anything to do with the pituitary gland?

Angie (05:04)
I mean, if we want to talk about, our endocrine organs and the pituitary gland, like we can get into all of that. But in cats, not necessarily. And so I think it's a different disease than what I'm guessing she might be experiencing, or he might be I

We're we're extrapolating too much

from one species to the next. And luckily it does happen.

JoJo (05:24)
Which happens. That does happen. I mean people talk about

supplementing their dogs with electrolytes or salt in their water and

Angie (05:32)
Yeah.

JoJo (05:32)
dogs don't quite have that same need as we do.

Angie (05:36)
Well, and we probably don't have the need I mean, I think most of the time we don't need to be taking a Yes.

JoJo (05:39)
No. We have been sold that we have that

need by companies like Gatorade. Which is prob yeah.

Angie (05:46)
Yes. You

have to be you have to have a lot of sweat loss to actually need

JoJo (05:50)
Yeah.

Angie (05:51)
electrolytes. Do I use them? Yes, they taste delicious. So

JoJo (05:56)
Exactly. If

it didn't taste delicious, you'd probably be like, I'll deal with my electrolyte imbalance. So totally. Okay.

Angie (06:00)
Yeah.

JoJo (06:03)
Are we ready to move to the next one? Okay.

Angie (06:05)
Let's move to the next one.

JoJo (06:07)
This one is in response to the kidney disease episode. I think it was the second episode where we talked about end of life and how to know when it's that time.

Angie (06:16)
Yeah.

JoJo (06:17)
And they say, I disagree with the mouth sores and end of life. So do you want to speak to that part first?

Angie (06:24)
If I remember correctly, because I think I remember saying this when I recorded this like over a year ago, but I think we talked about like when is it time to say goodbye to your cat in end stage kidney disease? And one thing I I think I might have said is like, by the time they're having mouth sores or not eating, that was a a line I I drew.

JoJo (06:44)
And she or he, again I don't know. We give our cat Kenalog Do you wanna do you

Angie (06:49)
Mm-hmm.

JoJo (06:50)
wanna say what that is?

Angie (06:51)
That is an oral steroid. Well, it's a topical oral steroid. And it comes in this really thick paste. I know because I've used it myself for like canker sores. And it comes in a paste where you can put it on the mucosa and it will stay. And it I mean, it's really effective. It doesn't immediately get rid of pain, but it's pretty effective at getting rid of swelling.

JoJo (07:15)
Okay, so they're giving their cat catalog and the mouth gets better and allows him to eat and with

Angie (07:20)
Mm-hmm.

JoJo (07:20)
sub Q fluids daily and syringe feeding, renal hills mixed with water. if you can get the inflammation down in the mouth, the B U N and the creatinine also drop, meaning you may do blood work and think it's from kidneys, but it's actually the mouth causing the spike. My cat runs, fights, plays with other cats and hunts at night.

Angie (07:41)
Okay, so I think this is what's probably happening. I don't think this cat has end-stage kidney disease. Now, I'm making a ton of assumptions right now because I don't have all the information. I don't have the cat in front of me. I don't have the blood work in front of me. But cats also get ulcers in their mouth called like rodent ulcers or indolent ulcers. And my guess is that if it's a steroid responsive ulcer and the cat's energetic, then it's actually not ulcers in the mouth.

From azotemia or end stage kidney disease. And so I think we're just talking about something else. But indolent ulcers, we we definitely do treat. usually we'll do with cyclosporine or prednisolone. And so, and they actually they they do get better. And so, cats that are in very end-stage kidney disease are not running around. And so I'm going to agree with this person's comment that.

Ulcers not due to kidney disease are probably not an end stage kidney disease problem.

JoJo (08:41)
And there's probably not a correlation with the ulcers in the B U N and the creatinine.

Angie (08:46)
No, other than I wonder if what's happened is if this cat had ulcers in their mouth, they probably weren't eating and drinking well. And dehydration causes those levels to increase. And so probably once they use steroids, got them to come down, then BUN and creatinine probably did go down because of hydration, not for any other reason. Yeah.

JoJo (09:09)
Got it. That

was a good explanation. And that was one of those ones where like somebody's had this experience with their cat and think

Angie (09:16)
Yeah.

JoJo (09:16)
that's like the answer for all cats with the oral sores.

Angie (09:19)
Right. And I

yeah, I think we're just confused on classification of why we have ulcers. So Yeah.

JoJo (09:26)
Mm-hmm. Well, thank you for clarifying

your position on mouth sores and end of life.

Angie (09:31)
Yes.

JoJo (09:32)
Not that if you can't get mouth sores, that's it. That's not what you're saying.

Angie (09:35)
No no,

JoJo (09:37)
I hope I don't butcher this one. This is from our supplement episode on YouTube, which just went out last week.

she or he, again, don't know, is asking, is

saccharomyces boulardii Good

Angie (09:49)
Mm-hmm.

JoJo (09:49)
to give my dog on prednisone for lymphoma. I use the NOW brand.

Angie (09:54)
so saccharomyces is a beneficial yeast that can help benefit the gut and the gut health. so probably the reason why this person is wanting to do something is because when you give steroids, it's not the best for the gut. And so I'm guessing that's why I I don't think there's any harm in using it. Every once in a while I have a dog that's sensitive to saccharomyces

And it causes diarrhea and GI upset. But no, I don't think there's anything wrong with giving the saccharomyces It might help improve digestion. I don't think it's gonna make a direct impact on the lymphoma, but if we're trying to mitigate any potential damage that the steroid would do for the gut, then you know, it's a good start.

JoJo (10:39)
Do you have any opinion about the now brand? That's like one that you would find in any grocery store, I feel like.

Angie (10:45)
Yeah, that's one I see a lot in like Vitamin Cottage. I don't know.

JoJo (10:47)
Mm-hmm.

Angie (10:48)
I have no opinion about that brand. People like it. I don't know.

JoJo (10:51)
I totally judge

that brand just by their branding. No. I think it looks

Angie (10:55)
you don't like it? They're always the most affordable one.

JoJo (10:59)
I didn't say it looks inexpensive, so therefore I'm like mm yeah. That's nothing

Angie (11:03)
Yeah. I don't know.

JoJo (11:06)
that has nothing to do with how it is. That's just how I walk the aisle.

Angie (11:08)
Yeah. Yeah. You're like no to that orange.

JoJo (11:12)
Or if you have one that you like, do you have a brand you like that you do know and trust?

Angie (11:16)
I mean I bet well, I bet Thorne does a saccharomyces. pure encapsulations

JoJo (11:20)
I bet they do. Yeah.

Angie (11:22)
might do it too. Yeah. I don't use it a ton

JoJo (11:26)
Okay.

Angie (11:27)
by itself.

JoJo (11:28)
which one do I want to do next? we had a clip that we played about immunotherapy with

Dr.

Angie (11:33)
Mm-hmm.

JoJo (11:34)
Dell, and that was from our DERM episode. And basically he's saying immunotherapy is how you get to the root cause. It's like the best approach, is what he was saying. And this person says,

I'm pretty certain that gut is playing a big role in all of this.

period. I just thought that was an interesting piece because we didn't actually get to talk to Dr. Dell about that.

Angie (11:58)
No, I know. I have I have some I have some complicated feelings about dogs that have allergies and chasing their gut health down. because I don't wanna gaslight people and say that they're not related. but we don't know how to fix it.

when I was a baby vet and I was like, okay, this has gotta be all from the gut. And especially I had my oldest daughter at the time was so allergic and I remember having like really food allergic, to like a crippling degree. And I remember talking to her allergist and her pediatric gastroenterologist, and they they both agreed that the reason why over time we're becoming more allergic.

Like every generation is more allergic, more peanut allergies, more food allergies. they really felt like some of it was attributed to antibiotic use in the 70s. That's what the GI doc said. And then the immunologist, the allergist was like, Yeah, also our world's really clean and our guts are changing because of it. And then the w the way we're birthing and the way like

You know, we have more C-sections, and so there's just this kind of trickle down over generations. And that that has to be the same for our canine patients. And maybe it's not true, but I do feel like dogs are getting more allergic and now cats are getting more allergic. I don't know if that's true or if that's just my perception. which could be wrong, but so yeah, I think when people say that, I'm like, yeah, but what okay, so like what are we gonna do about it?

Is it actually possible to take this one gut flora and change it so much then that we're gonna reverse these allergies? Like maybe I haven't figured out how to do it. I've used all the probiotics, the raw diets, the hypoallergenic diets, all like gut, like fecal transplants. I've done

JoJo (13:50)
Uh-huh.

Angie (13:51)
that. I have done Chinese herbs. I I feel like I've like

really given all of these a fair shot. And it it hasn't really been able to yield any consistent result that I feel like is is worth the time. I love all those things. And so I've kind of taken this approach that I can control food allergies. So I'm big about working up food allergies. we probably have an episode about this. And

I love immunotherapy because we are getting to the root cause of the immune system overreacting. But I haven't found anything better than that. Like those two things together, and then symptom suppression so that we don't break down our skin barrier and we don't damage and scar it up. Like that's what really works best, IRL.

JoJo (14:42)
Which is a great segue into the next one about symptom suppression because that

Angie (14:45)
Okay. Yeah.

JoJo (14:48)
that got people heated. People did not like Dr. Dell saying that Cytopoint could be used long term and likely is not gonna cause cancer, that he doesn't have concern around that. And over and over again, maybe I posted the wrong clip and it wasn't clear. I don't know.

Angie (15:05)
Yeah.

JoJo (15:06)
'Cause

sometimes I think I come in with these assumptions and this lens that I I miss sometimes, this

Angie (15:09)
Yeah, yeah.

JoJo (15:11)
other piece of it because over and over again people are like, Well, yeah, but what about the root cause? What about the root cause? And specifically, you know, it's like somebody had said, say what? You know, like, Woo, say what with lots of exclamation points and stuff. This is not holistic practice. What do you know about cancer?

And I can't believe you're gonna stop the itch and not get to the root cause.

Angie (15:37)
Well, I actually know the person that wrote this. I was on her podcast. Angela, is it Ardolino

JoJo (15:42)
And hopefully I said

it the way it was meant. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe

Angie (15:45)
I don't know.

JoJo (15:48)
it was say what question mark? Maybe it was much softer than the way I read it.

Angie (15:51)
I know. We should we should

have her on the podcast and talk to her about it. and

JoJo (15:56)
Mm-hmm.

Angie (15:56)
I think, you know, like any any like small clip we take out of an episode, like that's all like there's only so much you can fit in f in

JoJo (16:04)
Sure. That's all I can do. Yeah.

Angie (16:07)
45 seconds, you know, like that's what it is. So yeah, we did talk about we we we did talk about getting to the root cause. We we did I don't think in that episode we talked a lot about diet. There was just so much to talk about. There's like

JoJo (16:18)
We did not. Mm mm.

Angie (16:20)
But so yes, no, of course we wanna get to the root cause. Of course. And so I think that's the thing. And I'm you know, I'm glad she commented so we can have this conversation and hopefully she'll come on our podcast. I loved being on her podcast. No.

JoJo (16:32)
Well and she was not alone, right? There were that was

the thing. What about how dare you treat the itch?

Angie (16:38)
Yeah. Yeah.

JoJo (16:41)
And that's the piece I think where I come back to is it's

Angie (16:44)
Mm-hmm.

JoJo (16:45)
so humane. Let's talk about the oath though that's taken. About

Angie (16:49)
Yeah.

JoJo (16:49)
in my opinion, scratching and being itchy is suffering. And so

Angie (16:53)
Yeah, it is suffering.

JoJo (16:55)
it feels humane to just suppress that while you figure it out.

'Cause that can be a very

Angie (17:00)
Yeah.

JoJo (17:01)
long process to get to the root

Angie (17:03)
Super long.

JoJo (17:04)
cause and sometimes never.

Angie (17:06)
And sometimes never, especially the dogs that are like, they're just terrible in September and October of every year. You know, like it's really hard to work on that because you know it's just like some plant. And, it's like, yeah, just do a cytopoint and move on with your life. and I mean, I I don't know as much about cancer as Brooke Fowler. Watch that episode. we had an oncologist on. So no, I don't I don't know as much about cancer as she does.

but I see cancer, I mean, most weeks in practice, like pretty regularly. So I feel like I know some things about cancer. I mean, as much as a general practitioner would know about cancer. and just one thing I think people like to understand is like the science. And

JoJo (17:50)
Hmm.

Angie (17:50)
so I would encourage people to look at the studies.

and look at actually how the mechanism of action there are other things that we're doing and we don't want to get into it now because that would take a long time and it might be a little bit boring. but so when you think about like, does this cause cancer and we're worried about this, some of it you just need to know medicine and physiology too. Yeah.

JoJo (18:11)
Yeah. No, that's fair.

And I think Doctor Dell spoke on it. Really. He really went into

Angie (18:15)
Yeah.

JoJo (18:15)
how the studies have been played out and what he's looking at and the studies he's participated in and what that process looks like. so it's fair to say what we know about cancer is what we know about cancer, right? I don't think

Angie (18:27)
Yeah. Yes.

JoJo (18:29)
we will ever fully know cancer in our lifetime.

Angie (18:32)
Right. Yeah.

We'll definitely get a lot better.

but I think people have this frustration because there's the prevalence of itchy dogs is so high. And I mean, and maybe there are veterinarians out there that are better at it than I am to try to do it all holistically. I created a whole program called the Itchy Dog Solution. And

I tried to take as many people through it as I could and it just it it didn't work repeatably. I mean, I think I got some results, but also, it took a lot of time. So you you have to think about the average person that maybe has two children and two dogs and a career and other things, like stopping your whole life and just focusing on, a whole gut healing protocol.

That's really hard too, and not knowing if it's gonna work.

And yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

JoJo (19:23)
Or elimination diet with single ingredient buybacks. So yeah,

it's a really hard process.

Angie (19:30)
It's a really hard process. And so I think not everyone has the same time and financial resources. Like that's a very privileged place to sit to be able to say, I am gonna just really spend the next two to three years working on my dog's gut health. and if that can be the case and it actually works, great. I just haven't seen it be successful. And meanwhile, these dogs are just miserable and they're ruining their skin barrier.

Which guarantees that whatever you do to heal the gut isn't gonna work anyways because

JoJo (20:02)
And you get

more fun medications on board once that happens. you're talking sometimes

Angie (20:05)
Yeah. It's

JoJo (20:07)
steroids and Yeah.

Angie (20:09)
yeah. Like cyclosporine. Like and cyclet's

talk about cyclosporine, which I have to use in some of my really itchy patients. And we do think that there's an increased it's small increased risk of lymphoma with that. And so I guess when people are really upset that they think we're lying about the fact that cytopoint is not gonna increase your dog's risk of cancer, like that's that's real. It's not

JoJo (20:33)
Yeah.

Angie (20:34)
because it doesn't work like that. So

JoJo (20:36)
Ugh

and I can

Angie (20:37)
Yeah.

JoJo (20:38)
think this is an area where people really want to stay in the holistic lane, as clean as possible. And you and I have seen dogs whose ears people have just been treating with hydrogen peroxide solutions or things because they're so afraid of using any kind of antibiotic or any kind of treatment. And these dogs I can't imagine how painful their ears have been for years. yeah.

Angie (20:59)
some dogs

they have otitis, ear infections for so long, their ear canals become stenotic and I can no longer use topical therapy. I have to use oral antibiotics, oral steroids. I have to go places I don't wanna go, but

I'm forced to go there. And so I I think that's the part when you're not a practicing veterinarian.

and like I I love all the work people do in the integrative space and the holistic space to try to find other alternatives. And I think it's great, but sometimes you just have to meet the occasion of Well, what am I supposed to tell and and do? How am I supposed to help these dogs now?

JoJo (21:35)
And sometimes

intervention earlier prevents more intense toxic interventions later.

Angie (21:41)
Yes.

JoJo (21:42)
And your dog or cat has suffered for less time. So

Angie (21:45)
Yes.

JoJo (21:45)
to me that feels holistic in nature. That's why I would say

Angie (21:47)
Yes, and I think.

JoJo (21:48)
yes, it is holistic practice at times.

Angie (21:51)
It is holistic and

really like Cytopoint pretty integrative. yeah, pretty integrative. And I think this is where we all need to be having the conversation because we're all on the same side. Everyone at the

JoJo (22:03)
Mm-hmm.

Angie (22:04)
end of the day wants that itchy, allergic dog to not be itchy and to be healed. I don't want to keep seeing them. I don't want them in my office. And so it's like

The people that write in and she has a a passion for dog health and animal health. And so it's yeah, we should talk to each other because we all want the same thing. So

if we

JoJo (22:24)
Yes.

Angie (22:24)
could get together,

JoJo (22:25)
You're being a great bridge where I'm over here reading comments in a snarky voice. All right, I mean girling my Saturday. I'm sorry. I'll

Angie (22:29)
I know. I mean that's probably how she meant it It's okay.

JoJo (22:36)
do the next one nicer.

Angie (22:38)
Okay.

JoJo (22:39)
okay, we have two more topics. One

is heart guard and ivermectin intervention. This was also kind of a hot topic. Because I don't know if this is true or not, Dr. Angie and maybe you do, but people are saying that

Heartworm has become resistant to ivermectin.

Angie (22:57)
my God, let me look. Not here.

JoJo (22:58)
I know and I

was like, I wonder if Dr. Angie knows this. Because we don't have enough of it. This is again where our privilege of living in

Angie (23:05)
Yeah.

JoJo (23:05)
Colorado is so privileged.

Angie (23:09)
That I haven't heard that. And I I have a heartworm positive dog that I'm currently treating. So I've been all over the American Heartworm Association's website, like catching up on what's new. I haven't heard anything about that, but let's look. my God, that sounds like a nightmare. This better not be true. We're gonna look though.

JoJo (23:27)
Yeah,

it was it was commented multiple times. So it was like, okay, there is there something happening in these more mosquito heavy areas. Yeah, like that have

Angie (23:36)
Right, like the South. yeah.

JoJo (23:39)
just a really heavy burden of them.

Angie (23:43)
And what do you use?

JoJo (23:45)
I was gonna

ask you that.

Angie (23:48)
Okay. Someone asked the same question. This is back in two thousand seven. I know it wasn't happening then.

okay, here's something in 2025. This is a place where we can kind of all post and Okay,

JoJo (23:56)
Yeah, it's a veterinary board.

Angie (23:59)
we haven't had any reports on VIN at least in the parasitology folder. There was a flurry of resistance in the mid 2000s, but that seemed to have resolved. Main thing to do is to document each case or report it to Zoetis and to the FDA.

Yeah, let's see. It says check with LSU, so Louisiana. Okay, so let me go to the Heartworm Society.

JoJo (24:22)
Yeah,

I didn't find anything in just like my high level of poking around.

Angie (24:26)
No.

that sounds terrible. No, I don't think so. I don't think that's happening. Thank God.

JoJo (24:30)
Okay. And for

I while you do that, I'm just gonna I'm gonna make a plug. Is that Dr. Angie has done a course on itchy and allergic dogs and on parasite prevention. And if you wait till the end of the episode we'll have a code so you can get one of those for free. But yeah, make it to the end of the episode. That's my like little breadcrumb trail. Yeah,

Angie (24:48)
Yeah. Yeah. You have to hang out with us for longer.

JoJo (24:53)
well we only have one more topic to go down into.

Angie (24:57)
so I looked at Vin, but I'm I'm gonna go ahead and be thorough and ask Claude.

JoJo (25:01)
Ha ha Claudia

I don't know. 'Cause I mean, ivermectin it's seemed pretty popular there with Covid and all the things.

Angie (25:10)
I know it did, it got all popular.

Which is only gonna help dogs have less heartworm disease.

so the Mississippi Delta region, okay, I guess there was a according to Claude, that's where it was happening.

They were having yeah, they were having some resistance. Louisiana, Mississippi. Yeah, I guess if you wanted to know more about that, I would call like the universities there. But yeah. Yeah. We

JoJo (25:34)
Yeah. If you live in those areas, maybe you probably know more than we do. So

Angie (25:40)
we don't have it here.

JoJo (25:41)
Okay. But we believe you.

Angie (25:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

JoJo (25:46)
Resistant that sounds terrible. The last one was the other really hot topic. when we talked about what was happening in the rabies recall. So there was a rabies recall

Angie (25:57)
yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

JoJo (25:57)
Yeah, and

so some practices had vaccinated with these rabies vaccines that weren't actually rabies vaccines. So they were just sterile water. Or we don't know if any dogs got vaccinated with sterile water, but they had to recall it all

Angie (26:11)
Yes.

JoJo (26:11)
and revaccinate these dogs that may have had something from that batch. So

Angie (26:16)
Yes.

JoJo (26:16)
hot topic that brought up a lot about rabies vaccines.

Angie (26:18)
Apparently. Okay.

JoJo (26:21)
And so one commenter who could have been kinder said, Wow.

Who are these women? Smiling about something that totally stresses out anyone that does research on good food, what vaccines to give, their dogs and the number of people that have lost their dogs or had dogs that had seizures or later developed tumors at the site or that ever famous limp that little dogs get on their right leg when the shot goes often. Run on sentence. The dogs that become skittish or have behavior changes after vaccines.

But vets won't say much unless they are considered holistic. A rabies vaccine costs a vet about three dollars. Do the math. And you know because it wouldn't be pink, meaning the vaccine. WTF is that about? The manufacturer or the vet? Who got it wrong?

So basically this person was saying, one, it's a money grab because it's only three dollars. And two, who would ever vaccinate with something that wasn't pink? Which we agree with you. Nobody would have unless

Angie (27:19)
I w I think we probably no one got vaccinated with that. Yeah.

JoJo (27:22)
you were like really inexperienced. And why would you ever revaccinate on these recalled rabies? And this was a lot of people felt this way. Money grab

Angie (27:29)
I mean I Yeah

JoJo (27:32)
was a big thing. First of all, they don't cost three dollars.

Angie (27:35)
Well, the there was no money grab because the company paid for them to all

JoJo (27:38)
You guys lost me.

Angie (27:40)
be r vaccinated again. So no, I mean there was no money grab there.

JoJo (27:46)
Or in general

really I will say this. I used to live in the camp of believing that it was a money grab to do vaccines. Because I was like, yeah, we

Angie (27:54)
Mm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

JoJo (27:56)
can get dogs and cats in the door. But vaccines aren't money makers.

Angie (28:01)
Well, I mean, w this is interesting because I worked at a practice when I was a baby vet. And at the time, distemper parvo was every three years for dogs. But this practice made it every year. And their rationale was is that if they made it every year, they knew their client behavior so well that they're like, This is how the dogs come in. If and at that time I don't think leptospirosis was widely used. So now there's

You know, you would have leptospirosis. But they were using the distemper parvo vaccine to get dogs back in the door. And it wasn't because they were trying to make money, but he was like, if I don't see this dog for three years, I can't

JoJo (28:45)
Eyes on.

Angie (28:46)
catch that oral mass, I can't catch that dental disease. And so it's kind of like it was manipulative, but like with the best of intention, knowing his client behavior.

JoJo (29:00)
And I think that's cat vaccines too in general. most people aren't gonna bring their cat for an annual exam unless there's something

Angie (29:06)
My God.

JoJo (29:06)
due.

Angie (29:07)
The the clinic I work for, like Boulders Natural Animal, people do bring their cats in for annual exams. I know. I love it so much. It's heaven. It's not the norm. You should, you should, but

JoJo (29:13)
Yeah, that's weird though. It's not weird. I mean it's just not the norm, I don't think. I mean people

really live in the land of cats don't need much.

Angie (29:24)
Yeah. That's a whole episode. Yeah.

JoJo (29:26)
Yeah. So

anyhow, I think I well as much as I didn't like the way this person approached this conversation, 'cause

Angie (29:34)
Yes.

JoJo (29:35)
who are these women? Hi, I'm Jojo. I've been a veterinary nurse for mo more than

Angie (29:38)
I'm Angie. Yeah.

JoJo (29:41)
two decades. Seen a lot. Yes, and I'm always gonna smile. I just can't.

Angie (29:45)
Yeah.

JoJo (29:46)
You guys, I've looked at these episodes where I tried to tone that down and I just have resting B face. It's not nice.

Angie (29:51)
my gosh, when I'm scrolling Instagram at the end of the day, just trying

JoJo (29:54)
Yeah.

Angie (29:55)
to like literally zone out, and I come across my face when I'm trying not to smile and I'm listening

JoJo (30:01)
Yeah.

Angie (30:01)
to you, I cannot stand it. It's not okay with me. Yes.

JoJo (30:05)
I look bored I look so bored and honestly

I don't move through life not smiling. So

Angie (30:11)
Mm.

JoJo (30:12)
that's the answer to that. And whether the vaccine costs three dollars I

Angie (30:17)
They're

not that cheap. I can guarantee you that that vaccines I mean.

JoJo (30:20)
Not the three years

cat vaccines.

Those are pricey.

Angie (30:25)
In fact,

what I want to say is every time I pull one of those three-year purevax up, I

JoJo (30:32)
Yeah.

Angie (30:32)
think, don't mess this up. Don't mess this up. Yeah.

JoJo (30:34)
I used to feel that way too on our house calls. I'm like, don't miss

Angie (30:38)
Don't miss. Don't give this in the fur. Get it in the cat. Like, because, and the thing is, of course, the clinic is gonna pay for another one. And we always traveled for every one rabies vaccine we needed. We traveled with two

JoJo (30:52)
Yeah.

Angie (30:52)
and and all of that. But like,

yeah, no, they're so expensive.

JoJo (30:57)
They're so expensive. So

Angie (30:59)
Yeah.

JoJo (31:00)
yeah. And I know I I think this person went on to say they just slap a different label on the one year and the three year, but it's the same exact amount. Can you wanna clear

Angie (31:10)
It's

JoJo (31:10)
that up?

Angie (31:11)
well, that is true for the BI IMRAB They are the same vaccine. for the cat purevax, which is also BI, it's not the same vaccine. And so that is tricky. veterinary clinics don't like it because we are trying to carry as few products as possible so that we don't have expiring inventory, so then we don't have to.

increase prices for you, right? And so it's just a gross oversimplification of saying that all the rabies vaccines are the same. It's not true. And it

JoJo (31:43)
Yeah.

Angie (31:44)
and I can only say like the IMRAB one and three year are the same because that's the only vaccine type for the most part, unless I'm doing relief, that I've used throughout my career. But if we were to go to like Zoetis, like I don't actually know that. I would depend on the company to

To tell me that. So

JoJo (32:04)
Yeah,

that's true. And and I think they're fair that some states require every year and some require every three years. And that's confusing.

Angie (32:10)
Yeah.

JoJo (32:11)
So I mean I as much as I don't like the way that you spoke to us, I agree with you.

Angie (32:18)
Yeah. Yeah. people you get all this like factoids and you're like, what do I do with that? And sometimes people assume the worst. But I get it. But what that's why we're here doing this podcast. So we can be like, Well, actually, let's tell you.

JoJo (32:31)
And I had fun reading it in a different voice. It just made it more entertaining.

Angie (32:35)
no, I love it. I mean, absolutely the majority of these messages are so disrespectful and unnecessarily mean. It's so unnecessary. Because if someone would have been like, Hey, is there a difference between a one and three year vaccine? Or I heard this was the case. Is that true? We could answer it just as effectively.

JoJo (32:53)
Yeah. You don't have to start with, Wow, who are these women?

Angie (32:56)
Or what do you know about cancer? You don't have to say any of those things. Nope. You can just say,

JoJo (33:00)
No.

Angie (33:01)
hey. So

JoJo (33:03)
Hey, my

opinion is different than yours. It's okay. We have room for that. But get

Angie (33:06)
Yeah. What do you think about this? Yeah. Totally.

JoJo (33:09)
off the net with your false information, Dr. Angie, and let's just close this out with that was fun actually. I like that episode. So Let's

Angie (33:19)
Well we have to we have to give the code.

JoJo (33:21)
I was gonna

Angie (33:22)
Okay, go. Okay. Give the code. Okay.

JoJo (33:24)
I remembered. But I actually

usually do that part, so of course you would think that I forgot that. But we have

Angie (33:29)
Yeah.

JoJo (33:29)
we have courses that are full of information and take a deeper dive. And because you're here and you listen to this whole episode, if you go to BoulderHolisticvet dot com, go with Learn More, and then click on the courses and use the code truth tales, spelled T A I L S or T A L E S and you can choose a course for free. So

Angie (33:51)
Yeah, they're

ninety seven dollars.

So use it. They're kind of long courses 'cause there's questions at the end.

JoJo (33:56)
Yeah, our kidney course was very long.

Angie (33:58)
Was it like two hours?

JoJo (33:59)
Two hours, but it's not up yet. So that

Angie (34:02)
okay.

JoJo (34:03)
one's not up yet. Maybe by the time this is, it will be. But

Angie (34:05)
Okay. I'll put

it up. I mean, there's an older one. Or was that down? Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Jojo

JoJo (34:08)
Yeah. That's down to replace it's it's a process. Yeah. We're working on it. But there's a lot of others.

Angie (34:15)
does everything. She ships everything out. She produces this podcast. She develops our website. So yes. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know everything. Okay.

JoJo (34:22)
I am a jack of all trades and some days I'm like I know nothing. So okay.

Angie (34:29)
we would love to hear your comments. And

We would love if you left them nicely and

JoJo (34:36)
Or leave

that way and I will read the way I that I received them. That's fair.

Angie (34:39)
That's true. We're

like, please read this the next time. It can like it can turn into into

JoJo (34:43)
Yeah, I had fun with this. Go ahead, leave however you want to.

Angie (34:47)
theater, but we will read them out loud.

JoJo (34:49)
I could get props. Till next time. Bye.

Angie (34:50)
Okay. ya next time.