Angie (00:00)
Welcome back to Tails of Truth, where we tell the truth about veterinary medicine. I'm Dr. Angie, and this is my co-host and veterinary nurse extraordinaire Jojo. And today we want to talk about trends in the veterinary industry. And we might have some pretty sad feelings about it. Choice words.

JoJo (00:17)
Choice words I'm like,

we can we do an E episode? I feel so angry about the way our industry's going.

Angie (00:25)
Yeah,

I know. JoJo asked if we could use explicit language on this before we started recording.

JoJo (00:32)
Mm-hmm. I think the answer is

no. Maybe. I just say bleep. Bleep.

Angie (00:36)
Yeah. Just bleep and then 'cause

then you have to do more work in editing, so

JoJo (00:42)
Yeah. Well here's the thing. I bet if you're listening to this, you also feel some of these things, but maybe don't understand why it's happening or what's happening on the back end. So I feel like this episode

Angie (00:52)
Yeah.

JoJo (00:53)
is the ultimate in truth telling because it's getting shady out here.

Angie (01:00)
It is getting shady. You know, and usually as an entrepreneur, a business owner, as a practitioner, I've always felt like it was up to me to keep up with the kind of trends and the changing industry. You know, it's like when Chewy came out and we were doing all these online pharmacies, I felt like, okay, it's up to us to evolve or die. And

But now we're getting to the point where it's kind of out of control and I'm worried about the future of veterinary medicine and I'm worried about its accessibility for the average person in the US. tell me.

JoJo (01:40)
Have stats for that. Because

your worry is legitimate. Right? It's first

Angie (01:45)
Yeah.

JoJo (01:46)
of all, I heard you say, it was adapt or die. And I'm like, well, you're just being slaughtered right now. Like, it's just the truth. where

Angie (01:51)
It's yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

JoJo (01:55)
I wrote it down somewhere, it was significant Private equity and corporate owned clinics. Eight percent of US clinics.

in twenty eleven were a corporate or private equity owned. Twenty twenty five, fifty percent. That's

Angie (02:11)
Mm.

JoJo (02:12)
such a significant increase. And vet costs have risen by sixty percent since twenty fourteen. So you as a pet parent are I mean, I see it everywhere how mad people are that we're in it for the

Angie (02:25)
Yeah.

JoJo (02:26)
money, that the costs are just astronomical. You can't afford to have a pet anymore. And you're not wrong.

That's true. It's really

happening.

Angie (02:33)
Yeah.

Yeah. I I have to insure my pets because I can't afford veterinary care. I had to take Fiona to the dentist yesterday and the only reason I could afford that is because I had pet insurance. the nurse was like, Do you have pet insurance? And I'm like, Yeah, are you crazy? I can't afford veterinary care. Like, what?

JoJo (02:52)
and I hate insurance

on top of it. And I am now an insurance member. Because

Angie (02:57)
Yeah. You have to be.

JoJo (02:58)
the industry is changing that fast and that rapidly. And so I

Angie (03:02)
Mm-hmm.

JoJo (03:03)
don't know that you can adapt enough not to die in this industry.

Angie (03:06)
Yeah.

JoJo (03:06)
And I think that's what I feel so mad about. And I feel mad about that on behalf of professionals in the industry, the

Angie (03:12)
Yeah.

JoJo (03:12)
clinics that are still trying to stay privately owned and make it.

And then you as a pet parent who are like, How do I do this?

Angie (03:18)
Shout out, Boulders Natural. Yeah.

How do you do it? Yeah. Well, let's let's get into like some of the things that are happening. I know there was the FTC is l investigating a merge between MWI and what was it? What's it called? Covetrus Sometimes

JoJo (03:36)
Covetrus Yeah.

Angie (03:38)
I get like vet source, Covetrus for like yes, yeah. It's probably all the same.

JoJo (03:40)
'cause they've changed. Yes. And for those listening,

MWI is probably our largest distributor, would you say,

Angie (03:47)
Mm.

JoJo (03:48)
of medical supplies?

Angie (03:49)
MWI Patterson or Covetrus So there's three of right now.

JoJo (04:08)
I didn't even Covetrus had an arm and that I only know them as a pharmaceutical arm in the industry.

Angie (04:14)
I know they kind of have like crept up in the background somehow.

JoJo (04:19)
huh.

Angie (04:19)
but yeah. Yeah. It's it's really disturbing. So what's gonna happen is when these two merge, they will own seventy-five percent of the market. And so when we go to get supplies, they will have the ability to make them as expensive as they want. and that's bad.

JoJo (04:42)
It's already so

expensive. I mean,

Angie (04:44)
Yeah.

JoJo (04:44)
just recently in the last year or two, MWI started charging a shipping fee. I mean, so if you're small clinic, good luck. Cause if you're not

Angie (04:52)
Yeah.

JoJo (04:53)
ordering tens of thousands sometimes in orders, like you're paying shipping fees and you're paying credit card fee and you're paying some kind of supply distribution fee. And now I'm just like,

Angie (05:07)
yeah.

JoJo (05:07)
how

I I've just recently looked at it. I can't afford to buy things one at a time.

Angie (05:12)
No, and with the tariffs, like let's go back to that really fun topic. Like that really jacked up prices. And I don't I can't confirm this, but I think what happens is that companies, they have to pass on those prices to the consumer. So at that point it's the veterinarians that are the consumer. And then when the tariffs go away, the prices stay the same. And

so it

JoJo (05:35)
Mm.

Angie (05:35)
was kind of like this permanent price increase.

I don't know about you, but I haven't seen anything that we buy at the clinic or for our practice here come back down. No one's ever said like, yeah, no, this is cheaper. We could do that. Yeah.

JoJo (05:49)
No, only you and I do that.

It's only us. We're like, should we cut this by a little bit and cut our margins by a little bit? Like we're constantly thinking about the consumer, but

Angie (05:59)
Yeah.

JoJo (06:00)
Yeah, I don't know.

Angie (06:01)
Mm-hmm.

JoJo (06:02)
I don't know how privately owned practices are gonna make it.

Angie (06:06)
Well, and it's starting to make me feel like, should I should I make a plan B? Because right

JoJo (06:14)
What's your plan B be?

Angie (06:16)
I have so many plan B's. You

JoJo (06:18)
Okay.

Angie (06:18)
know, I mean, we've done so much stuff, like,

there's so much to do as a veterinarian in the industry. But I it makes me sad because I love being in practice. But when you see like all of these things happening, you're like, who's gonna protect us? And

Right now the FTC might try. I I'm not

JoJo (06:40)
I don't trust

anything. Like why?

Angie (06:43)
No

JoJo (06:43)
Why this one? It se yeah, it

Angie (06:46)
Why this one? Yeah.

JoJo (06:47)
seems to me, I mean, there's been so much moving and shaking with

Angie (06:51)
Yeah.

JoJo (06:52)
Chewy and Mars and all the different big players in the game that I'm like, why this one?

Angie (06:58)
Well can we talk about what's happening with Chewy? 'Cause I've

JoJo (07:00)
Yeah, let's talk about

what's happening with Chewy because I feel like Chewy should now be I'm just gonna say they that should not be named. Like can they be the Voldemort of the

Angie (07:10)
And

JoJo (07:12)
veterinary industry? Like ouch, Chewy.

Angie (07:15)
I mean, I well, first of all, I often do relief at local Chewy clinics. And I have to say, I love working at their clinics. As a veterinarian, like I'm always supported. I have all the medications I need. A lot of their stuff makes sense. They provide great care and great customer service, but they, I mean, Chewy as a business. So it's like the people that run those clinics are like amazing, lovely people. And this is where big

Corporations, it's hard to be like, who are we pointing the finger at? but they are now offering. So if a veterinarian is like, hey, I'm not going to fill this medication, or sometimes it takes us a couple days, they're now offering telehealth consults for $49.99. And they, yeah,

JoJo (08:01)
It's under fifty.

Angie (08:03)
yeah. And they

JoJo (08:05)
Okay.

Angie (08:05)
can, I know, and they can prescribe medications based off of that. And I'm like,

no. no no. That's

JoJo (08:17)
I just wanna swear because

Angie (08:19)
You can swear. It just you're the one that has to

publish this episode and do whatever you have to put the E on it or something. I don't know,

but

JoJo (08:26)
It just makes

me so mad because you're right. They do a lot of things well. And they I think what they do really well is they help you as a consumer feel like you're getting really good care. And I've read that in the statistics. If you're a younger generation, you like this. This is a brand you can trust. So you're gonna follow them from shop to clinic because

Angie (08:47)
Yeah.

JoJo (08:47)
they've built this brand name that you trust. But

I don't I mean, I think it's dirty business what's happening, and I don't trust what's going to happen in the future. I really

Angie (08:58)
No.

JoJo (08:59)
think, like what you just mentioned, that makes me feel terrible because you're out there doing great service, offering amazing consultations, and you can't prescribe. And it's a limitation

Angie (09:10)
Mm.

JoJo (09:11)
that sometimes I'm sure you would like to. I know you would love to sometimes, where it's an obvious prescription. And you're not allowed to do that. So now they also just like

It feels like a knife in the back

Angie (09:23)
it definitely feels like a knife in the back. And I mean, and the reason why I can't prescribe is because I haven't seen that animal and I haven't done a physical exam and I'm not in touch in the same way. And so it's like there are some drugs where you're like, this is relatively safe, but there are a lot of things. I mean, there's there's really good reason why to prescribe they want that doctor to put their hands on that patient. And we can't always get it.

And I am for telemedicine. And the service we provide is that I talk to you about treatments that are available and I help you talk to your veterinarian. So because your veterinarian might say, yeah, the reason why I'm not prescribing that is because of this. And you don't have that information. All I have are the records. And so I mean, there's a lot of nuance there. And so like I can help people have better conversations. Maybe I can, provide some recommendations for

Hey, why don't you try this food or this supplement and then talk to your doctor about this medication? But I I I worry about pets and like the care they're gonna get because people are gonna pay the $49.99 because they literally can't afford to go to the you know what I mean? Because everything's getting so expensive. Yes.

JoJo (10:35)
Well, I think it also breeds more distrust. So

if you're I not only breeds distrust, so like, my vet wouldn't prescribe this, so now I'm going to just go to Chewy and get what I want anyhow because I think it's best for my pet. Which I'm not saying that the consumer is always wrong or the pet parent's always wrong, but there's definitely a subset of customers who just want what they want, whether it's right or wrong.

Angie (10:59)
Totally.

JoJo (11:00)
And it just undercuts your ability. I mean, it puts more pressure on

your veterinarian to get things done in a very quick manner. And that's not realistic.

Angie (11:11)
It's

not realistic. Yeah. I mean, sometimes Chewy will just like keep sending us like they'll just like fax to us over and over and over again. Like sometimes I'll have something on my desk at nine AM and I think, okay, I'm gonna get this signed today, but I'm gonna get it done over lunch because I tend to batch my tasks out. And sometimes by like noon, they've already faxed me another one. Like, hey, are you gonna do this? And I'm like, I really do wanna do it. but like they just they just keep doing it over and over again.

JoJo (11:37)
They do do that Saturday morning

by the time I come in on Monday there's five for the same thing. I mean good Lord

Angie (11:42)
Yeah, they're like, Why haven't you done this? And I'm we're like, I

JoJo (11:44)
just breathed. I mean I'm just imagining them as like this mass machine. And I mean they did their due diligence. They put their practices in places that were very, very strategic, which that's business. That's not that's not

Angie (11:59)
Right.

JoJo (11:59)
unique to them. But I wonder what's gonna happen when they own the amount that they set out to own.

And those cheap prices that you have right now, that doesn't stay. That

Angie (12:12)
No.

JoJo (12:12)
that's a marketing game.

Angie (12:15)
Yes. Yes. I yeah. I'm I feel worried. And then it makes me wonder as a veterinarian, like, okay, do I do I need to stop picking up shifts? I mean, I don't do it very often, but I, I don't mind helping them out. And like I know the people at a few locations and I mean, this has literally nothing to do with them personally. they're just trying

to practice good veterinary medicine. But I'm like, okay, do I need to divest myself? And then, what does the

average pet parent do.

JoJo (12:45)
I don't know the answer to that because I'm imagining if you're a new grad, you're being pursued by these corporations. They're probably paying, I don't know, some part of your debt or something. Do they do that? So I mean I

Angie (12:57)
yeah. Well

JoJo (12:59)
feel as a new vet, that's a new grad, that's all you're gonna know is corporate.

Angie (13:03)
I know, I know. yeah, that it's changing. I

JoJo (13:06)
It's changing. I don't like change.

Angie (13:10)
don't like it either. And I feel so lucky that I'm in a privately owned practice that cares about me. And I'm not saying that big companies can't care about their employees, but they can't in the same way like Liv Brockman. Like she cares about what's happening for me.

And she cares about what's happening for everyone in her clinic. Like she goes to great lengths to make it, a good working environment and to get us what we need. But it is going to be really difficult going forward. And I think people I I know it's easy and I it is cheaper. It's every time I look, Chewy's is a little bit cheaper. I know it's easy and it's cheaper to get your prescriptions filled at Chewy.

Consider just picking them up at the practice. Like when you're in for your exam and you do your heartworm test, like just pick up, just pick up that year's worth of prevention, which is so easy for me to say because that stuff is expensive. But or

JoJo (14:08)
So expensive.

Angie (14:09)
like go get it, get the first box and then when you need it again, like get it from the local practice because it's gonna ensure that those places can stay open.

man, and if this merger happens.

JoJo (14:19)
Mm-hmm. Well, and I think pet parents

are might they might be starting to it's not that Chewy is the only player in the game and they're only they're the only big beast moving in on small practices right now. But

Angie (14:33)
No.

JoJo (14:34)
I mean these new care plans that they have in corporations where you pay for for a wellness plan or something and then your pet dies and you are still expected to pay for your wellness plan.

Angie (14:45)
I know someone I last week

JoJo (14:46)
Like it's just contractual, it's not human.

Angie (14:48)
last week I got a new client. He's like, I've been going to Banfield.

JoJo (14:53)
Banfield. Yeah.

Angie (14:54)
Yeah, and my other dog died and they sent me to collections and I I haven't paid it 'cause I'm so upset that they would expect me to pay the rest of my contract. Like, what are we leasing cars? Like what's happening? Like

JoJo (15:08)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's become a thing. It's just not it's not humane.

Angie (15:14)
I know some people will call and say, Do you guys have like puppy or kitten packages? And we're like, Absolutely not, because we're not treating one puppy exactly like the next. You know what I mean?

JoJo (15:26)
individualized

care, that's gonna go to the the wayside.

Angie (15:30)
Yeah. I mean, we're thinking about like what are you doing this summer? Okay, your puppy is twelve weeks, but okay, when are you going on a camping trip? Like, it's not some nurse that's coming in and selling you like this is what you need. It's we're like we're trying to figure out what's happening in your life. How's the your puppy doing? Are we I mean, there's just so much going on there that we would never have a care package. Ever. So yeah.

JoJo (15:52)
Ugh. Ugh That's just

one part. That's just one part. We've got

Angie (15:58)
Yeah.

JoJo (15:59)
we've got lawsuits happening with Zoetis.

Angie (16:02)
Yeah, tell me what's happening there.

JoJo (16:04)
I mean I don't even think we need to talk about the lawsuit with the shareholders. That just feels shady. And we'll see how that plays out. That like they just

Angie (16:13)
Okay.

JoJo (16:13)
basically I think they just under sold how much money they were losing on certain products and their shareholders are just eating

Angie (16:21)
yeah.

JoJo (16:22)
eating those losses.

Angie (16:24)
Wait, so you were telling me that they are losing money on Apoquel and CytoPoint and that this is like public

JoJo (16:28)
Two competitors

and I don't know who the competitors would be.

Angie (16:33)
Well isn't there a new I mean, just came out. Isn't there a new Cytopoint? I don't I don't know. We don't have it in the clinic.

JoJo (16:39)
Like the Zenraelia

and then there's Ugh, we talked about it with Doctor Dell. There's a brand new one that came out like two weeks ago. It's the

Angie (16:46)
Yeah.

JoJo (16:47)
Stop the Itch Face one or whatever.

Angie (16:51)
yeah. Stop the rusting itch face.

JoJo (16:52)
New New Rel

New Valley, New Relva.

Angie (16:55)
well Zenrelia,

that's been yeah, that came out. But isn't there a

JoJo (16:58)
Numelvi or something.

Angie (17:00)
Numelvi Is Numelvi a Cyto Point com competitor?

JoJo (17:06)
I don't

know. I don't know. It's

like brand spanking new.

Angie (17:09)
Okay. Okay.

JoJo (17:11)
But they were, you know, they were also losing margins on Librela and that's a whole conversation too. Can we talk about that?

Angie (17:15)
Well, that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, we could do a whole

JoJo (17:20)
Let's just say that here. That also like breeds distrust. Here's this medication that starts out strong, like your dog's doing better. And then if you look at the radiographs of these joints.

I don't know how many how many injections in? Seven, eight?

Angie (17:38)
Well, it it doesn't happen for every dog.

JoJo (17:41)
but the the I've seen some of them and I'm just like holy moly

Angie (17:45)
Yeah.

JoJo (17:46)
Like what's the non E word? Holy moly gee whiz th those joints It degrades

Angie (17:52)
Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't I don't use it.

For some dogs it does. Yeah. I mean, I'm

I'm not defending any of it. But as a little side note, pro tip from Dr. Angie, when new stuff comes out like that, just sit back and

JoJo (18:11)
Take a beat.

Angie (18:12)
give it a minute. Give it a hot minute. So

JoJo (18:14)
Yeah.

Angie (18:15)
that's what I do. I remember like early on in my career, I think it was a

Is it Proheart twelve? One of them came out and like wasn't quite right. And so

JoJo (18:23)
Yeah.

Angie (18:24)
I just anytime that stuff comes out, I just let it let it hang for a minute and then they kind of figure out what's

JoJo (18:31)
Well there's a new there's

a new injectable for pannus

Angie (18:38)
what is

JoJo (18:38)
in the eye

for like every six months. Anyhow, so let that play out. Before you go inject an eyeball. no thank you. Well so their

Angie (18:41)
I love this. Also, we'll let that hang before I participate in that. Yeah, I just yeah. Mm-hmm.

JoJo (18:51)
Zoetis the other the new hot lawsuit against Zoetis was for their I can't remember the name of the product where they're scanning

Angie (19:03)
Okay,

hold on. I kinda wanna Google this. What's the product called?

JoJo (19:07)
Yeah,

I can't remember right offhand. Let me tell you. Wait, give us give us a second here, 'cause

Angie (19:10)
Okay, should we ask Okay.

JoJo (19:13)
we're moving fast with all this information. VET scan imagist. This evaluates

Angie (19:19)
Okay.

JoJo (19:20)
tissue samples to to basically diagnose whether or not it's cancerous or not cancerous cells from masses.

Angie (19:30)
That's okay.

JoJo (19:32)
That's my understanding. I think

you submit tissue samples and then it's like this AI generated VET scan that looks at the cells.

Angie (19:41)
yes, I've actually used this at a clinic I did relief at. It was super cool. But and

JoJo (19:46)
Yeah.

Angie (19:46)
but here's the deal, like I'm so old school that I would still always look at my own samples. You know what I mean?

JoJo (19:52)
Well, maybe that saved you, Doctor Angie, because

there's a clinic in Oregon that is suing Zoetis for falsifying the information. Basically they're saying this is a fraudulent system. Like and so it misdiagnosed a dog and the dog died from

cancer.

Angie (20:09)
Wait, is it

like just looking at a fine needle aspirate? Is it looking at cytology?

JoJo (20:13)
I don't know what you're submitting.

Angie (20:15)
okay, let me I kinda wanna find out 'cause I'm like, how

JoJo (20:17)
Yeah.

Angie (20:18)
well we can't bypass people. This part of me is like, mm, you shouldn't have done that. let's see.

JoJo (20:24)
It's so is Zoetis just like really aggressive in what they put out? Because it just seems like we hear about Zoetis products quite often.

Angie (20:32)
No, I don't know if it's Zoetis more than anyone else. I mean, I could be wrong, but I wouldn't yeah. I mean, yeah.

JoJo (20:34)
Really. Yeah. Dependent on them.

Angie (20:39)
I mean, we can put it on them, but I don't know if they're any more represented than any other company. okay, it's a small in-office digital scanner paired with AI software that analyzes biological samples, blood feces, urine. Yes, I've seen this and gives vets fast loud quality style diagnostics results.

Without sending samples out to external laboratory, it integrates image recognition technology. Okay, so it does fecals, urine sediment. I've I've used the urine sediment, AI dermatology. So probably like a a cytology or like

JoJo (21:13)
Yeah.

Angie (21:14)
ear stuff, blood smear, equine, fecal egg count, AI masses.

and digital cytology images. Okay, so that's what happened. man

JoJo (21:26)
No, now that's

not the tool that's out there now that where you're just like running it over the mass That's a tool that's out there. Who makes that? That's new. That

Angie (21:34)
Yeah, don't use that. I don't know. Stay away.

JoJo (21:36)
that one scares me. I'm like, really? You're gonna just like run

Angie (21:38)
No.

JoJo (21:38)
that over a mass and look at a screen and it's gonna be like mostly fat, mostly not?

Angie (21:42)
No, you're not. Don't do it. Nope.

It's so easy to stick a needle in there. I probably

do three a day. They're so easy. It is like not that big of a deal. Every once in a while, I'll have like a sensitive place where I'm like, I would want a little something ahead of time. But for like 99.9% of the time, sticking a needle into a mass, and we can have a separate episode on whether or not that actually spreads cancer.

that's so much easier. Don't yeah, I mean, and this is the thing is like how can we really trust AI? And I guess I'm old enough that I would never take a cytology, put it in a machine, like I would never do a fine needle aspirate, pull out cells, stain it, and then just depend on my machine. Like I would freak out.

JoJo (22:29)
For as something as

important as a cancer diagnosis

Angie (22:33)
Yeah.

JoJo (22:34)
because some of those masses and some of those cancers are so aggressive and multiply quickly. Anyhow, and

Angie (22:40)
Yeah. No

JoJo (22:43)
I thought it's a big deal because it imagine your hospital suing Zoetis. It's not it's not a corporation suing them, it's it's a hospital.

Angie (22:51)
Yeah.

JoJo (22:52)
Well,

on top of that, imagine losing your dog because something like that didn't get checked. Ugh

Angie (22:57)
Yeah, medical error. I mean,

all it happens. Yeah, for sure. But I mean, I do think we've taken this AI a little bit far. Like I worked at did some relief at a hospital that was using AI radiology. And

JoJo (23:12)
Mm-hmm.

Angie (23:13)
it would like it. So I would take a picture of like, let's say a chest. So I was taking picture of like lungs and heart. And then it would tell me what it thought. And I literally never trusted anything it said.

If it agreed with me, I guess I'd be like, you agree with me. Maybe I'm right, but I could never substitute that for sending it off to a radiologist. Like if I needed help,

JoJo (23:37)
Yeah.

Angie (23:39)
I'm gonna send it to a person. A person. I don't know. I don't know about that, so

JoJo (23:45)
Yeah,

I don't either. It also makes me think, like, how are we gonna start training up new vets? Are they all gonna be trained in this virtual landscape and not hands in an abdomen? Like

is it

Angie (23:56)
Yes.

JoJo (23:57)
gonna change?

Angie (23:58)
Yes. So now that we're all using AI note taking, what

JoJo (24:02)
Huh?

Angie (24:03)
happens is like, so when I if I use AI to, like even when you go to Chewy, they're using Scribble vet, which I love Scribble Vet. So I walk into a room, we're having the conversation, and I'll try to say a lot of my physical exam findings out loud because I know Scribble is gonna help me write it down. So it just makes my day faster and it actually makes my notes a lot more accurate.

So then I don't walk back to my computer and was like, is that the left or the right? Or which tooth was that? Like it's it's it helps make the the medical notes a lot more accurate. But it will generate differentials. So like let's say an animal's vomiting, how veterinarians work things up just like how people and how we take our notes is on the assessment, we'll say vomiting, and then we'll say, like, rule out foreign body, rule out dietary indiscretion. So then we're thinking about all the rule outs.

But like what could this be? And AI now, you can tell when something's been written by AI because you're like, that's not a differential, or that's a weird thing to say, or like,

JoJo (25:06)
Yeah.

Angie (25:07)
it'll say like gingivitis, rule out improper whatever, home care or genetic predisposition. And you're like, this actually doesn't require a rule out.

The animal just has gingivitis. Like we don't have to go further with this. And so my point to this long story is that I think new veterinarians are going to be depending on AI differentials. And I don't think it's

JoJo (25:31)
rather than their own skill set.

Angie (25:33)
no, because you kind of don't know. You know, like when you first

start, now I went to AM and I was taught how to do this by Dr. Willard, like the best.

clinician ever, I swear to God. And he taught us for two years. So in third and fourth year, like it was a militant program. And so we thought about differentials and like he was very strict with us. And so I felt like I'm I'm pretty good at my differential list and how I think about things. But I think it's going to change how new graduate veterinarians think about things because AI is going to think about it, not yeah.

JoJo (26:12)
Yeah. Well

think about I mean, I think about so this maybe we're being antiquated out in the way that we do things because I think about when we get notes from the older generation and it's still handwritten people, like these

Angie (26:26)
Ha ha ha.

JoJo (26:27)
notes and like who is still handwriting their soap notes? my. And so maybe the younger Gen's gonna be like, my God, who's still writing out their own differentials? my.

Angie (26:40)
my god. Yeah, I know.

JoJo (26:43)
this episode could go on and on. Like I

think

Angie (26:45)
Yeah. It's like thirty minutes.

JoJo (26:48)
I know I just looked at that and I'm just thinking, if you're a pet parent and you've made it this far into this episode, I I just want to really acknowledge that the industry is changing. You're not imagining that. You're probably experiencing different things in the clinic. Your bills are getting significantly higher. I mean, I also did some CE with an insurance company, and of course they're doing their due diligence to see how much is care cost.

So they know where to put their pricing and all that kind of stuff. And just to have a dog in this lifetime, one dog, twenty-two thousand to sixty thousand dollars you should expect to spend. You guys we're getting in like human child territory here. Like, I don't know, not really. I think it's more like a million to have a kid. But and a cat

Angie (27:31)
Yeah, not really. my I know I was gonna say.

JoJo (27:35)
is twenty thousand to forty seven thousand and they're the fastest growing pet.

in in the nation, more people are having a cat, but it's really

Angie (27:42)
Yeah. Yeah.

JoJo (27:44)
not that much less expensive. I think they're capitalizing on you being a cat parent now and getting more care and being an attentive cat parent because just since twenty twenty two

Angie (27:49)
Yeah. Which is good. Do that. Do that.

JoJo (27:54)
it's gone up twenty percent cost to have

Angie (27:56)
Yeah.

JoJo (27:57)
to have a cat.

Angie (27:58)
Well, I don't know if that we're capitalizing. I wish I could say that we see more cats, but I think just everything is so much more expensive.

JoJo (28:05)
But the cats went up almost twice as much as dogs did in terms of pricing. So that makes me think we're going, you're willing to invest in your cat now. I think twenty years ago people your cat came to the vet only when absolutely necessary.

Angie (28:21)
I think this is my opinion on this.

JoJo (28:23)
Yeah.

Angie (28:24)
I mean, obviously I don't know, but I think it reflects that the first of all, more people are owning cats. So that segment is increasing. And so now they're getting more representation in veterinary medicine. And we're so much better at detecting and treating cat diseases. And that's why it would have gone up more compared to their

JoJo (28:45)
Mm.

Angie (28:46)
canine counterpart. So I don't even think that we're trying to capitalize off of.

I think that it's just a reflection of the demand for it, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah.

JoJo (28:55)
No. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. It does make

sense. And I I think you're probably right there. Exhale. Yeah.

Angie (29:01)
Yeah, we're getting better. Okay, so I know. I

think at the end of the day, what I wanna say is try to get care at non corporate veterinary clinics.

JoJo (29:15)
Does that feel scary to say in a corporate world?

Angie (29:17)
I mean, I f I feel old enough. No. I guess if I were twenty seven and just getting out of school,

JoJo (29:23)
Mm-hmm.

Angie (29:24)
but I'm out like twenty years, you know? So I feel like

Yeah. I don't know, maybe it does. Like are they gonna find this podcast and then never hire me?

JoJo (29:32)
It's possible. They won't hire me. I'm like Chewy is Voldemort.

Angie (29:38)
Hi.

JoJo (29:39)
Can we make that clip? but

I have nothing

Angie (29:42)
Yeah.

JoJo (29:43)
to lose.

Angie (29:45)
Yeah, like whenever you can, try to support your local clinic. And there are, I mean, even in the Boulder area in Boulder County, we have several clinics that are still locally owned that aren't corporate owned. Try to support

JoJo (29:56)
Ha ha.

Angie (29:57)
them whenever you can. Get pet insurance. Like I think there has to be some acceptance that care is getting more expensive. And it's not just that our technology is getting better, but like the tariffs and the economy and like gas prices.

and mergers and

JoJo (30:12)
And younger generation is demanding a better wage. And

Angie (30:17)
Yes.

JoJo (30:17)
that is gonna change the industry. Nurses get paid crap. Man, it's so hard to filter myself. Nurses have,

Angie (30:23)
Yes.

JoJo (30:26)
but I think this newer generation is like, no, I'm gonna you're gonna give me health insurance and you're gonna give me time off and you're gonna pay me a decent wage. So yay, go you guys.

Angie (30:34)
Good.

JoJo (30:35)
Like that's so important.

Angie (30:37)
Yeah. So you're just gonna pay for it when you, get your cat vaccinated. Like your vaccines are gonna be more expensive because of that.

JoJo (30:43)
Yeah, but you're

gonna have an educated person working on that rather

Angie (30:45)
I support it. I support it.

JoJo (30:48)
than just your high school student who is supporting your vet.

Angie (30:52)
Or you're gonna have someone that's happy to be at work that day versus someone

JoJo (30:56)
Yeah.

Angie (30:57)
who's burned out and feels underappreciated and underpaid. So it is ridiculous. Okay. Well,

JoJo (31:01)
Yeah, the turnovers ridiculous. So this changing. You're not you're not imagining it.

Angie (31:08)
we wanna hear from you. Wherever you're watching this episode, leave us a comment. Let us know what you think. Like what's your experience?

Tell me what you think of all the things that we talked about. And do you get your heart worm prevention at Chewy? tell me, tell me what you're doing. And if you want to hang out with me and talk about your pet, you can go to boulderholisticvet.com and you can hit book a consultation. And I can't prescribe any medication, but I can look at your pet's medical history. I can give you an integrative care plan.

And I can help you with conversations with your veterinarian. And so if you do that, you book a consultation and we will collect records. I'll go over them. We'll meet on Zoom. It will all be recorded. And yeah, Jojo, anything else we should add a

JoJo (31:58)
Well, I just say

support small business. We're small business. Go to BoulderHolisticvet dot com and we

Angie (32:03)
We are yeah, we are a small business.

JoJo (32:05)
have a supplements and toothbrushes and the things. And it it helps us. It helps us keep doing this.

Angie (32:11)
It does. Yes. It's just JoJo and myself doing this.

JoJo (32:14)
Yep, okay.

Angie (32:15)
Okay, we'll see you next time.