JoJo (00:00)
It is.

Dr. Angie Krause (00:00)
Welcome back to Tails of Truth where we tell the truth about veterinary medicine. I'm Dr. Angie and this is my cohost and veterinary nurse extraordinaire JoJo And today we are starting this episode with so many tears.

JoJo (00:16)
So

many This is actually a take two because we've got Kleenex. If you're listening or watching and you've ever lost a pet, you may want your own.

Dr. Angie Krause (00:20)
Yeah.

Totally.

I couldn't even make it through the intro. Yeah, this is our second take.

JoJo (00:30)
And somehow I

am, it's coming. But if you've been listening to us, you've heard me talk about my precious Bodhi, who we lost.

And I wanted to bring it to this space because if you love a pet, you'll experience this. And so much like, I don't know, I just want this podcast to feel like a bridge between not just veterinary medicine, but human to human. And this is hard. It's really hard.

I don't know where I want to go with it, except I knew that I needed to talk about it for it to be the closing piece. so Bodhi was my soul dog, and probably the first soul dog I've had. I don't, if you've not had yours yet, or your soul cat or your soul pet, whatever it is, it's different in terms of.

I feel that I lost part of myself with him, but I also loved part of myself with him, right? ⁓

He chose to tell me he was dying on my birthday. I think that was really hard for me. So New Year's was an emergency room visit. Angie has just been like there with all my questions because I think I called you on New Year's Day. I think I was ugly crying, like just like feeling like I know I don't want to go to the emergency room because I think I know I know.

And you're like, maybe you don't go to the emergency room. Maybe this is the time we just call the in-home euthanasia and people.

Dr. Angie Krause (02:05)
Yeah, you knew.

JoJo (02:18)
It would have saved me $2,500 to go that route. But I had, it was the last day of Christmas break, so all of my college kids were home. And I felt like I could never justify putting him down without clear answers because I had all these people to answer to. And so we did go to emergency and

Dr. Angie Krause (02:24)
And yeah.

JoJo (02:44)
I mean, that's when I knew he was really sick, right? Cause we were in an open concept emergency room and this dog is semi dog aggressive. And he was just laying in the middle of that floor without a care that a goat came by. People were running past him and he didn't move. And so, I felt really privileged because I had just listened to your, you had done an online consultation.

Dr. Angie Krause (02:59)
Yeah.

Yeah.

JoJo (03:12)
for an end of life patient. And I had been listening to it just a few days before. And I heard very clearly you tell these people, like, it's so nice to have the option to say goodbye on a good day. And that sounds beautiful. And that's something I want people to know. It's not so easy to say goodbye on a good day. The next day, which was

Dr. Angie Krause (03:35)
No.

JoJo (03:40)
⁓ My birthday we got the diagnosis as I went back in for an ultrasound and he had ⁓ an anal sac adenocarcinoma presumed. I mean it would have been a lot more money too. It was pretty damn obvious that it was invasive and presumed in the lymph nodes. It was in the lymph nodes.

Dr. Angie Krause (03:53)
It was. It was. Yeah.

It was in the lymph nodes.

JoJo (04:04)
Yeah, that's not the answer that I was expecting. But I was glad to have an answer because I thought maybe he's just deteriorating. And I think like he was starting to lose back end control. I think for people who have to decide to euthanize their animals for ⁓

I lost my words, for when their bodies start failing them, like, thank you, yeah, just thank you. And this is what my brain turned into. All this was happening just jelly. ⁓ I was like, man, I feel dumb, like when it comes to my own animal, which I imagine people feel. All the vets confirm that. like, I can't make decisions for my own animal. No.

Dr. Angie Krause (04:29)
Like, they're musculoskeletal disease. Yeah.

⁓ yeah.

Absolutely not.

JoJo (04:48)
But it was interesting, I'm like, that is the hardest decision I think to make is when they are so happy and fully there in their mental space, but their body's just, so I'm like, please don't make me make that decision. So getting a diagnosis of an aggressive cancer made the decision pretty easy. So then we made the decision to have the in-home euthanasia people come out because all the boys could be present and he had a good day that day.

Dr. Angie Krause (05:05)
Mm-hmm.

JoJo (05:14)
like a really good day.

Dr. Angie Krause (05:16)
Really good day? Like, do think he was almost back to his normal cell?

JoJo (05:19)
⁓ like he, no, like he still needed to be forced to go in the car to go for a picnic and you know, we went and got Kane's chicken and he had freedom to have it and he chose not to have it, which is like not his typical, but it was weird. have video where he was running back to the car, like just full on running like old man running, but running. And that felt like I got to find nice words here.

Dr. Angie Krause (05:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah,

JoJo (05:46)
mind trick like a month like it's just wait he's fine he's gonna be okay and then it's all of the bargaining

Dr. Angie Krause (05:48)
Yeah.

Ugh, yeah.

JoJo (05:57)
a lot of bargaining that I started to go through like and gaslighting of my own self just I must have heard the diagnosis wrong I Must have like heard something wrong. Like I must not understand this like plugging it into chat GPT of What's the prognosis and not even I just needed constant validation Yeah

Dr. Angie Krause (06:20)
Yeah,

that makes so much sense because it just is inconceivable. And it's like you and I have spoken about his deterioration for months and his aging and the reality of his age and his breed and what we could expect. But when you actually get that terminal diagnosis, there's no way that you can actually ever understand that even in the medical field. Your heart can't understand.

JoJo (06:31)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

No, and I went through all the things, I was so mad. I was so mad at him, like really honestly, like now when all my kids just left for school and all my kids are leaving him the next day, I'm like, how am I supposed to do that?

Dr. Angie Krause (06:50)
Yeah.

Yeah. Like how dare you leave me. I tell my current animals all the time. I'll be so mad if you die. Cause you are just so mad. Don't you do it.

JoJo (07:07)
Yeah. And it was all

the things I wanted to, which I wanted to have a Eutha bag for him, which these are these environmentally friendly bags that you can all color on the bag. And so when they pass, they put them into this bag and they can be cremated and or buried or whatever it is that you elect to do. And I went on an hours search for this bag.

And that came from being in this field and knowing what happens to his body afterwards was just so upsetting. Like so upsetting, Angie. Like I feel like we can do better than that. I didn't find a bag. No. And in order parts of it that I want people to know, it's hard.

Dr. Angie Krause (07:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I know. You didn't. No.

JoJo (07:54)
when I call the vet to come, you have to fill out all these forms. And one of them is what to do with the body afterwards. And whether I could not click this box that says, if you want the ashes back, he'll be cremated alone. And just that those two words together cremated alone made me so feel so devastated inside. Like, even though I know he's ⁓

Dr. Angie Krause (08:17)
Yeah.

I know.

JoJo (08:21)
So we elected, they had a, I don't know, a deal with, not a deal, they have a relationship with CSU, the veterinary program. And so we elected to have his body donated to science. And that felt really good. Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (08:41)
Yeah.

So for you, just the thought of him being cremated was just alone. ⁓ I know.

JoJo (08:46)
Alone, it was the alone piece. I was like, ugh,

like somehow it's better if he's in a group. And it was the piece of knowing that his body goes into a trash bag. Like, why don't we do better than that?

Dr. Angie Krause (08:53)
Yeah, interesting.

Yeah.

Right, right.

JoJo (09:03)
I don't know. And then on top of that is just the guilt. I think

I don't know that I will fully grieve until I've forgiven myself.

Dr. Angie Krause (09:13)
What do you feel like you need to forgive yourself for?

JoJo (09:15)
There's two pieces, there's one I knew he was chewing at his back end for like six months.

So I think I feel really bad that I didn't catch that sooner, even though I wouldn't have done anything differently.

Dr. Angie Krause (09:28)
Right.

JoJo (09:29)
Yeah.

Yeah, that I didn't know to advocate for a rectal exam at his age. That made me feel inadequate a little bit.

Dr. Angie Krause (09:37)
Yeah.

JoJo (09:37)
And the other piece I feel guilty about is what if he had seven more good days or 14 more good days? And I chose now because all of our people were home.

Dr. Angie Krause (09:53)
Yeah. Would it help if...

JoJo (09:54)
Like that too early

question, like that too... I don't really believe it.

Dr. Angie Krause (09:57)
really? Yeah.

I know I was gonna say, it help if, I know that you know that he didn't have it, but would it help if I told you that I knew he didn't have it? Like if there was some consensus, he didn't have it. He wasn't gonna have it. The day you got to send him on was miraculous and it wasn't, you weren't getting that.

JoJo (10:08)
It does help a lot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (10:19)
He was so sick.

JoJo (10:20)
I know, but that stupid rally.

Dr. Angie Krause (10:23)
I know, I know.

JoJo (10:24)
Like the vet came and he's greeting her and licking her tail up and I'm just like, dude, we're gonna kill you. Like that's the way it was going through my head. I mean, I apologized to him a million times when he was passing. And there's just little things that I in that. ⁓ So I just am saying this because I think people probably feel these same things. Like those.

Dr. Angie Krause (10:31)
my gosh. Yeah.

I feel

those things. So my soul horse, when I euthanized him, he was so sick. It was so clear that we weren't going to save him. I know that in my medical mind. But even when you euthanize horses, they just go from standing to not standing, which is a violent moment. And he fought it. He was an anxious horse, high, strong. And I did the same thing. like, I'm so sorry, but you've got to let go.

I for a long time remembered that moment of like feeling so guilty and like, should I wait at another day? But you shouldn't have waited another day.

JoJo (11:27)
No, because the next day could have been like the day before, and the day before he was lifeless.

Dr. Angie Krause (11:32)
He was lifeless. felt so terrible. Yeah.

JoJo (11:34)
It's so bad and

that cancer is just not a nice cancer to have.

Dr. Angie Krause (11:39)
It's a terrible cancer. And the other thing that at his age, it probably wasn't, it's always possible it wasn't the only thing going on. And so sometimes you think about like, well, even if you could have gotten that, then what else? And so it's like, would you have felt better if he was so sick that he couldn't get up to greeter? You would, right?

JoJo (11:42)
down.

Right. ⁓

Yeah, think so. I

I think there is a sense in which it's easier when they are clearly suffering Right, but then I also have felt bad in the past when I've waited too long And so it's just like there is not I don't believe there is a sweet spot And so we wrestle with either way had I waited longer I would have felt terrible if I think my oldest son was able to fly back for that Because he was so impacted

Dr. Angie Krause (12:11)
Right.

I know.

No.

Yeah. Yeah. ⁓

JoJo (12:31)
like,

I am shaking, I am shaking, hard to talk about without having all the big ugly crying, right? So like, there's this containment to have this conversation. But that's the other piece of it too. Well, it's one, I did have to keep replaying the radiologist who came, who was like, I can just euthanize him now. So I have that piece in there of like, she knew.

Dr. Angie Krause (12:37)
Yes.

Yeah.

JoJo (12:56)
even though her report says something different. She's like, I can't write, you know, that it is this. And I'm like, of course I know. And then the other vet that was there, she's like, I'm going to give you enough pain meds for the weekend so you can say goodbye. And I'm just like, okay. So I have to keep replaying those.

Dr. Angie Krause (12:57)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

JoJo (13:13)
And it's just, was a beautiful ceremony because we got to choose the timing. I'm shaky. I am so shaky. ⁓

Dr. Angie Krause (13:17)
Yeah.

Don't you think he wanted to die with all your boys home?

JoJo (13:24)
It

was beautiful. Like it was, even the dog that I didn't know how she would handle it. The other dog, she usually is kind of, I mean, you met her on Friday at home where she can be a little unkind and she just greeted the vet and then sat in the same room, but kept repositioning herself and she has her own sadness she's going through. And it's really interesting to watch. It's really interesting. So.

Dr. Angie Krause (13:37)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

JoJo (13:50)
But yeah, he had everybody there. And I just had regrets that I played a role that I have in his family of just all the decisions around the pets are mine, which makes sense, right? And so I'm telling them, hey, at this point, he still has awareness. you like, I'm going through it because I also have like, this is I love this, this part of the work. I think helping pets transition is such

Dr. Angie Krause (14:02)
Totally. Yeah.

JoJo (14:16)
a beautiful, beautiful gift and being available to the people, a beautiful gift. Like I went and got certified through the University of Vermont for this stage of life and transitioning animals. And so I have this real academic understanding of it. You further your certifications in this too. So for Dr. Angie and I, this is really, we really love this space as much as you can. I mean, I just think it's...

Dr. Angie Krause (14:36)
Yeah.

JoJo (14:42)
an honor. It's an honor to be in that space. So I took on that role of this is what's happening. You know, if you have things you need to say, now's the time. And yet I forgot to move near his face while he was still awake. And so that was a moment I just regret because when he passed and I moved toward his face, I could tell like he's gone. And I missed it.

Dr. Angie Krause (14:44)
It's... yeah.

Yeah.

Aww.

Yeah.

Yeah.

JoJo (15:06)
But then I keep telling

myself I laid on the emergency floor for five hours with him. So like we had lots of conversation.

Dr. Angie Krause (15:11)
Yeah,

that wasn't the moment that defined you for him. Yeah.

JoJo (15:16)
No, yeah.

So there's all those things and it's just I think now I'm in this space of it's been a week and our society does not make space for this kind of grief.

Dr. Angie Krause (15:30)
know for any grief really yeah

JoJo (15:32)
Yeah, I was going to say it's probably the same. if you lose a person, you probably get maybe two weeks. Maybe. But an animal is like hours later, what are we doing? You know?

Dr. Angie Krause (15:37)
Maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I think

the idea is that, you could have gone to the shelter the next day and gotten a new dog. Yeah. Yeah.

JoJo (15:49)
That got said so much that

you guys that's not helpful to tell someone. Well, are you going to get another animal? I'm just like, Whoa, no.

Dr. Angie Krause (15:59)
I think we're so

awkward in our society about how to talk about grief that they're like, how can I feel more comfortable with this uncomfortable conversation? And I would just feel better if you got another dog. I think that's what it's all about.

JoJo (16:08)
Yeah. And for me, it's so

much more than a dog. And I'm gonna say if you have a cat or something, this is a being that is with you every single day in the like, just the only true witness to my life is this dog. Like, without judgment, right? So in some ways, harder than...

Dr. Angie Krause (16:17)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh

yeah, it's a different kind of loss. Right, yeah.

JoJo (16:32)
Like I don't have any bad feelings toward him. I don't have

any justifications for feeling any kind of unkindness. and now he's gone and he's my comforter. So like you leave and now I don't have that. So, but it was beautiful again, planning it and having the space because the neighbors all got to come by. we ha people came by, everybody brought treats. They came and say that sat on the back stoop with him and

Dr. Angie Krause (16:47)
Yeah.

JoJo (16:59)
had their conversations and yeah, so I think and people have come by the backyard and they're like, your yard seems so empty now, because he just has been greeting some of these dogs for seven years. So, yeah, so.

Dr. Angie Krause (17:11)
Right? Yeah. There's

such a void now. You must feel like you're missing a limb.

JoJo (17:19)
Yeah, and it's like not really acceptable to be sad about.

Dr. Angie Krause (17:23)
Ugh, I hate that.

JoJo (17:24)
I think that's the

hard part. I think that's where I'm at now. And it's just, I just want to give people permission that grief looks however it's going to look. It's looked me waking up in the middle of the night being angry that one of my kids bought a motorcycle and being like, wait, if it hurts this bad to lose a dog, I'm so mad at you. Like that you were taking these kinds of risks, you know?

Dr. Angie Krause (17:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

as reasonable as a mother too.

JoJo (17:52)
Yeah, so I think

grief looks a lot aways. The next day I was mad at anybody who had a dog.

Dr. Angie Krause (17:57)
yeah, I, yes, I've definitely had those moments. remember after my mom died, there was a time where anyone that talked about their mom, like I was just like, I don't want to hear about your mom. Yeah, don't have a mom. Or after my horse died, I just like, was, yeah. I mean, when you lose that soul connection, like you just know that you're probably never going to get it again. And there is just kind of a darkness to that.

JoJo (18:08)
⁓ Yeah, yeah, totally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (18:24)
There, I've lost a lot of animals in my life and some have been more tragic than others, but that soul connection is just really hard because you just think, ⁓ no, I have to live X number of years without you. And there's something about that that just feels like it's kind of daunting.

JoJo (18:38)
Ugh.

It is and I've told you I've like I've for years they've been saying I have this premonition that I'm gonna die at 49. I'm gonna die at 49. I understand what this is about. And then when that happened on my birthday, I was just like, yeah, I was like, oh, that was it. Like I just felt, yeah. Yeah, so I'm telling you soul connection is it's a thing.

Dr. Angie Krause (18:54)
On your 49th birthday. Yeah. No Jojo, you've been talking about that for years. Years. Yeah.

Yeah. And so like you did die, right? There's part of you that just died.

JoJo (19:08)
I did.

Yeah, that I don't get to have back. So and I'm so grateful because what a gift to have love.

Dr. Angie Krause (19:13)
No.

Yeah. I mean, and I don't know what you believe, but I, I, I feel my animals around me. Or maybe I just want to believe that, but I do feel like they're in the, see them out of the corner of my eye or, you know, I don't know that that connection really just stops. just in this physical manifestation stops, which feels so final.

JoJo (19:19)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (19:45)
but this is all kind of temporary too.

JoJo (19:47)
Mm-hmm Yeah, and I just want to say to you. Thank you for showing up the way that you did like you were so grounding and I Know that you cared and you didn't steer me wrong, right? and I've never felt shame for not getting that ultrasound soon enough or But I just really appreciate the way you showed up for me

Dr. Angie Krause (19:48)
So.

you're welcome. I'm so happy I could be there. It was hard to come to your house on Friday and not see him there.

JoJo (20:12)
⁓ I

know I was so excited for the two of you to have that time together.

Dr. Angie Krause (20:18)
Yeah. And we had been planning

this time and then for him to not like part of the time that we planned was, you know, yeah.

JoJo (20:25)
Yeah, care for him. Yeah.

Yeah. And then I showed you pictures.

Dr. Angie Krause (20:30)
Totally. Yeah, you showed me a picture of one of your kids with him and I just like just lost it.

JoJo (20:35)
Yeah.

It was that's hard. That was a hard piece to it, which if I could tell people, it's uncomfortable. That moment is uncomfortable to know that your pet is passing.

Dr. Angie Krause (20:49)
Mm-hmm.

JoJo (20:49)
And parts of me wanted to exit. Like, I don't want to be there. I don't want to see my kids in this state of sadness. But here I had these four young men, 19, 19, 19, and 22.

Dr. Angie Krause (21:00)
Yeah.

JoJo (21:01)
all crying, all supporting each other. And I think in that moment, I'm just like, wow, that's what a dog can do. Right? Like all these young men can touch their feelings. So I, as uncomfortable as it is, I think it is so important to be there. And I think it's so important to create some space for children.

Dr. Angie Krause (21:09)
Totally.

Yeah. Yeah.

JoJo (21:22)
And maybe it's not in that moment and for the other pets to be able to say goodbye. And that's where I feel grateful that we weren't in an emergency situation where we were just like, because as we were in the emergency room that night, a woman ran in with her dead dog, like the dog was dead and she had her two young sons with her and they were doing everything to revive this dog. And like, that is a much worse ending.

Dr. Angie Krause (21:28)
Yes.

Bye!

Yes, yes, that's really traumatizing.

JoJo (21:51)
super traumatizing. And so I guess I'm saying if you can find a way to dig deep and be present, I think.

that you will be grateful for that moment.

Dr. Angie Krause (22:00)
Yeah, yeah, I think so. it's so hard. I euthanized a kitty last week and there were kids present that loved that kitty. And, you know, I mean, I do this a lot and it's hard every time, but there was something about this one where it was just like, ⁓ I don't know if I can do this. It was hard for me to even form words.

JoJo (22:01)
but not easy.

Dr. Angie Krause (22:27)
Because I was like, I was crying. Yeah. I hope so. Yeah.

JoJo (22:30)
yeah, and I think that's okay. As professionals in the field, I think so. I've definitely

had euthanasias where I've not been able to hold it together.

Dr. Angie Krause (22:39)
It's so hard. It's so hard. Because I'm feeling it with you and I know how important it is. Yeah.

JoJo (22:42)
It's so hard. Right.

And I will say, for the guilt that so many of us feel when we're making this decision, which is just, it's a tremendous decision to make for another being. don't take it lightly, but I always hold to what I've known of every veterinarian that I've worked for is that they will not euthanize if it's not appropriate.

Dr. Angie Krause (23:08)
No. Yeah.

JoJo (23:09)
I mean, I've never seen a veterinarian euthanize in an inappropriate situation. So I can relax in that knowing that there's this third party who would not do that. so you can, I'm telling people you can relax and knowing they're not going to do that if it's not appropriate. So it's not ultimately like our animals are making that decision.

Dr. Angie Krause (23:16)
⁓ yeah.

No, no, no, yeah.

Right.

I know it's a really, people say like, feel like I'm playing God. And I just want, I just hope my animal passes in their sleep and ⁓ yeah.

JoJo (23:41)
So don't we all? Yeah.

It doesn't actually that's another place I came to is I didn't want like what I was kept playing out. What are the alternatives? The alternatives his legs give out and I find him having fallen down the stairs when I was now. I don't want that or he dies alone and he's a pack animal and I don't want that for him either. So.

Dr. Angie Krause (23:57)
Yeah. No. Yeah.

Right. I am surprised

he chose to die with everybody because a lot of animals do choose to die alone. They go off by themselves. So I felt like it was such a tremendous sign from him that he decided to do that when everyone was home.

JoJo (24:07)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, ⁓

it is so interesting. So there would not be another time this year, probably.

Dr. Angie Krause (24:23)
No. Yeah.

JoJo (24:25)
So yeah, we sent all the boys back to school with sad hearts. So that is it. I just, I don't know. I don't know where we go from here, but that.

Dr. Angie Krause (24:29)
yes. Yes.

Well, everybody and everything dies. And that is one thing as a veterinarian I am so familiar with. And ultimately it's okay. Yeah.

JoJo (24:50)
Right. And if you're

going to love an animal, you will be in this position.

Dr. Angie Krause (24:54)
Yes. And we'll be here to help you figure out when it's time because most people need help. need help. Most people need someone to bounce symptoms and quality of life ideas off of.

JoJo (25:06)
yeah, it's like all reason and rationale and academic knowledge just gone. Just like tell me what to do. So have trusted people in place.

Dr. Angie Krause (25:11)
I know, it's gone. Yes.

Yes, absolutely. Anything else?

JoJo (25:19)
Hmm.

No, just I'm gonna miss him so much. Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (25:23)
Yeah.

Well, we would love to hear your stories if you want to share them with us. You can leave a comment. Can people leave pictures in the comments?

JoJo (25:31)
pictures.

I don't know. It depends on where you're watching this.

Dr. Angie Krause (25:38)
Yeah, I guess on social you can, right? You

can post a picture. Yeah, we would love to see those too. And we will see you next time. Bye.

JoJo (25:46)
Bye.