Dr. Angie Krause (00:00)
Welcome back to Tails of Truth where we tell the truth about veterinary medicine. I'm Dr. Angie. I'm an integrative veterinarian and this is my co-host and veterinary nurse extraordinaire JoJo And today we're talking about chonky cats and how to slim them down.

JoJo (00:17)
⁓ You know what's gonna happen though? How many of us love a Chonky Cat?

Dr. Angie Krause (00:20)
What's gonna happen?

I have one.

JoJo (00:23)
I know don't you just love the rolly-polly tummy rolls. I don't know They're cute

Dr. Angie Krause (00:29)
Yes, I love it when Fritz

sits on my lap on his back and he just is like, you know, sitting on his chonk.

JoJo (00:36)
Yeah, I mean, I think there's whole social channels dedicated to the cuteness of chonky cats. And we are in veterinary medicine and we're here to not talk about the cuteness, but how bad it is for your cat to be chonky Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (00:42)
Totally. Yeah.

It's so bad for them.

And I can say this and tell everyone I have a chonky cat. And maybe there's hope for him. And there are a lot of strategies to help your kitty lose weight that this far have not worked for my kitty, but they will probably work for the majority of kitties.

JoJo (01:09)
Right, I know that is a bit of a challenge with a cat on so many different levels.

Dr. Angie Krause (01:15)
Yes. Where should we begin?

JoJo (01:18)
I know that's where I kind of got stuck just now. I'm like, what do we can we just begin with the cuteness that we're not body shaming? I don't know how many appointments we've gone into or just like, girl, just own it. You're so cute and always girl we never do it about boycats. So we can tell Fritz to own his. Yeah, no body shaming and we're not shaming you.

Dr. Angie Krause (01:24)
We're definitely not glad I should.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, it's, know a lot of veterinarians get really kind of judgy about this. We're like, ⁓ you're feeding your cat to death. And usually that's not true, but I can tell you some pretty easy ways to help your kitty lose weight. When my roommate, Brenna and I were in vet school, we had six cats between the two of us. So.

We came together, I had two cats and she had one cat. And then like our last year of vet school, we just like kept collecting cats. So we had three each and they were all on kibble and they were all overweight. And when you're in vet school and especially, I think the later years, don't know if this was available to me the whole time. They will actually feed your pets for free. And when I say they, mean like Royal Canaan Hills, Purina, they, can just get free pet food.

And so we learned Texas A Let's see, Mike Willard, Deb Zuran taught us, John August, shout out to all those professors. They taught us in internal medicine, the cat should not eat kibble. So this was something that I was taught a long time ago and that we should be feeding them a more ⁓ species appropriate diet that would mimic the makeup of a mouse. And so we did that and we put

all the cats on Purina OM Canned. And so it's a really high protein, low carbohydrate, high moisture diet. And we have a picture, I wish I need to hunt this down, but we have a picture of all the cats eating all six of them lined up before. And then two months later, we between the six of them, we had lost one cat, cat's worth in weight.

JoJo (03:24)
⁓ was like, wait, what do mean you lost a cat?

Dr. Angie Krause (03:27)
Yeah, we lost

the whole like 10 pounds between all of them and everyone got trim just from going from kibble to, you know, canned

JoJo (03:36)
Yeah, you need to find that photo because that's,

yeah, that's really, really probably so cute and evidence base of this works. So did every single cat lose weight?

Dr. Angie Krause (03:44)
And it's, yeah.

every single cat lost weight. And I was feeding a grain free kibble because everyone's like, but Angie, I feed a grain free kibble. So it's fine, but it's not actually fine because there's so much carbohydrate content. And when cats, when we switch them to wet food, they almost always lose weight. So

JoJo (04:05)
Is that

simply from the decrease in carbohydrates? Okay.

Dr. Angie Krause (04:08)
Yes.

Simply from, mean, it's kind of the same with us too in different phases in life. Like definitely in this perimenopausal menopausal age, like increasing your protein does help change your body composition. And so I think cats have a very kind of similar, they just don't process carbohydrates the same way dogs do. And so we fed cats like small dogs, unfortunately for a long time. And then we realized that we were

wrong. so number one way to make your cat lose weight is just take the kibble away, which is problematic for some cats because some cats... Yes.

JoJo (04:45)
We're gonna have some angry cats. They're gonna

hate our show and like find ways to sabotage you listening.

Dr. Angie Krause (04:52)
Yes, they're gonna chew the computer wire or something. I yeah, I mean, it's most cats love their kibble because it's like us they they like carbohydrates and they're it's very satiating in the moment. And so I when I was, let's see, it was my 30s and I had three cats.

JoJo (04:53)
pause yeah

Dr. Angie Krause (05:15)
and I had just had a baby and I knew to not feed them kibble, but sometimes I needed the cats to sleep. I needed Maeve to sleep, so I needed the cats to sleep. So I would feed them kibble as a way to satiate them, to get them to stop meowing. And it worked. So I would always call it the kibble coma, which, you know, probably someone's going to hate on me for doing that. But if you've ever had a colicky baby, you'll do anything to get sleep. Yeah. And so...

JoJo (05:39)
Sleep

is queen. ⁓

Dr. Angie Krause (05:43)
Yes, and

I did it. It was a short-term thing that I did, but you know, it was effective. They're a little kibble-coma.

JoJo (05:52)
Well, and I feel like so many kitties that are on kibble are free fed So there's not a limit to how many calories they're ingesting in a day. It's just fill the bowl, fill the bowl, fill the bowl.

Dr. Angie Krause (06:01)
Right, especially when you have those free feeders that it'll just keep moving down. Can imagine how stale that kibble is? The cats don't care, though. They'll just keep eating it.

JoJo (06:07)
Hmm.

Right, well and on calorie count, it can be alarming when you first hear how many calories your cat gets in a day because it seems so little.

Dr. Angie Krause (06:20)
⁓ I know. I remember I was dating this guy who had this really fat cat and I think I was in vet school at the time, but he had this really fat cat named Steve. And when I showed him how much he should actually, like I calculated the calories because like, you know, I'm in vet school and think I know a bunch of stuff. And so I calculated the calories and then he needed like an eighth of a cup twice a day. And he was feeding like

Probably a half a cup twice a day. the amount of kibble your cat actually needs metabolically is shockingly small and it makes you feel bad about yourself when you look at it.

JoJo (06:57)
So bad,

I don't ever trust it. I'm just like, really? This is it? So I just want to name that that does feel alarming, but really your kitty does not need much to sustain their energy levels. ⁓

Dr. Angie Krause (07:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

No, no,

not as much as you think. so, you know, switching to a canned or raw diet is, is helpful. But then there's a subset of cats that are one, never going to get off a kibble. And so like, what do you do with those cats? Some cats refuse to eat anything else and they make their own life choices and it is what it is. And so what do we do with those kitties? Like, what are some strategies? And I think, you know, counting the calories.

but also helping them become more active and treating any underlying like arthritis and body pain is really important. And so having like some play sessions and getting them moving, whether you have to, they have to go up and down the stairs for food or, you know, get, get them moving. Just like, you know, we count our steps. mean, obviously you're not going to count your cat steps, but anytime you can increase that step count, you, you're making a pretty big difference.

JoJo (08:02)
Well, I've seen people who take the kibble and they feed it like just around the house little pieces here and there. So the cat is just hunting hide and seek for their food one kibble piece at a time, which yeah, it's a fun way for them to be not only to make them work for their food, but also just mentally enriching. So I mean, there are are options.

Dr. Angie Krause (08:12)
Yeah.

Amazing. Yeah.

Yes.

JoJo (08:28)
there besides the free feeder if you're gonna, if your cat's gonna make you stay with kibble or your budget's gonna make you stay with kibble because canned is a little more expensive than kibble.

Dr. Angie Krause (08:37)
Canned is more expensive. And there's nothing wrong with Fancy Feast, and there's nothing wrong with going to like Costco or Sam's and getting their canned food. And so by all means, like that's still better than any kibble. And having a slim cat that's fed, you know, any canned food is better than having a fat cat that's on kibble. So, yeah.

JoJo (08:57)
Okay?

What do they call it? I've heard it called the Garfield syndrome. These cats who just love to eat, you know, where they're just lasagna, more lasagna, more lasagna, but it would be.

Dr. Angie Krause (09:06)
Yes!

Well,

I know. Well, and then there's a subset of cats that we do all these things and they still don't lose weight. And I have one of those. And it's interesting because when I go on vacation, I have cameras all over my house because I have to obsessively monitor my kitties. And so I will watch Fritz come to the food bowl every hour and Fiona will come maybe two to three times a day.

And so Fiona is this behind me, this kitty here, she's very svelte. And this picture of Fritz is from when he was young, so he's svelte here too. But now he's getting to be quite obese and I've been really excited to see that they're enrolling cats in a study for GLP-1 implants. yeah, because then I'm thinking Fritz must have so much food noise.

JoJo (09:59)
It is really exciting.

Dr. Angie Krause (10:05)
Right? Like he must be constantly thinking about food because he's coming and checking the bowl. I mean, and he eats every time that we eat a little bit and eat. I mean, he's eating more calories than he actually needs.

JoJo (10:19)
but he's

not losing even when you are managing his intake.

Dr. Angie Krause (10:24)
Well, here's the part where I have to be really honest. It's hard to manage his intake with two different cats. Like, if he was my only cat, then I could manage his intake. But even when I cut the calories down, he just eats Fiona's food. And that's, yeah.

JoJo (10:39)
Yeah, we hear that a lot in the multi-cath

households. It feels impossible.

Dr. Angie Krause (10:43)
What is it, tricky?

It's, yeah, it does feel impossible. And I know everyone's like, get, get the separate feeders and then you put collars on them and then they can only open their own feeder. And I know if I did that to Fiona, she would just never eat again. Cause she'd be like, I can't be bothered. This is too much. She doesn't care about food. They're from the same litter. Yeah. They're just one, they have two different like body compositions that you just don't like he's a little bit longer hair.

JoJo (10:59)
And they're from the same litter. Are they from the same litter?

Dr. Angie Krause (11:12)
He's like just got a completely different build and he has a completely different personality than she does. And so I think if we could get rid of some of his food noise. Now, we have a lot to study, but what I understand from GLP-1s is that they help reduce a food noise. So you're not thinking about food all the time, but they also work metabolically to help decrease inflammation.

And ⁓ there are a lot of like they're, you know, increasing insulin sensitivity and there are a lot of other metabolic effects that are actually really beneficial. And so I wonder if these cats like Fritz will benefit when we've kind of run out of everything else to do.

JoJo (11:56)
Yeah, I've been, I got really excited when the study come out because since we are in the business of truth telling, that's not something I share very often, but I have been on a GLP one for a year and a half. And I had a pancreatic tumor when I was in my twenties, where they removed the tail end of my pancreas. And you have seen me work out intensely hard, count my calories for years. And I just kept gaining, kept gaining, kept gaining. And

because I like to think of myself as holistic leaning or yeah, more holistic leaning that I kept hitting up against I can do this myself. I can do this with calorie restriction and more exercise, calorie restriction, more exercise, I don't know. It just never, ever, ever was working. And it wasn't until I met a functional medicine physician who said, I really just want you to give yourself permission to try this.

And it has changed my life in all the best ways. The food noise, I didn't realize how often it was on until it was off. And so I don't know what it is for a cat, but for me as a human, was, if I eat this, I get fatter. If I eat this, I get fatter. I can't eat this, can I eat this, can I eat that? Should I eat that? Should I take an extra nut? So all of that is quiet and now I just eat when it feels necessary.

Dr. Angie Krause (12:58)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

JoJo (13:14)
⁓ And it's just so it's I'm excited to see what it'll do for our pet companions because why not why would they not also genetically maybe have some? differences

Dr. Angie Krause (13:25)
Absolutely. And I've seen for you, your thinking became more clear, you became happier, and you became sharper. Like, I don't, is that true? Like, you seem to have less brain fog. There's something that's sharper.

JoJo (13:35)
Yeah.

Well, sure, my inflammation is down, right? And for me, it never was about how thin can I get or I want to be a certain body type, but it was about I don't feel good in my body and I'm trying so hard. And so if I were a cat, I'd just give up. know, like, why not just lay around? Yeah, but and with a cat, I think what's significant. So I looked at these studies because the more and more studies that come out on the human side, it's just

Dr. Angie Krause (13:55)
Yeah. Totally.

JoJo (14:08)
Positive positive positive and so for me it's it's really helping my pancreas make the insulin that I am lacking Because there's only half of it to work with so they've tried it in some cats right? They did a what do they call it a proof of concept study and now so with the drug and the drugs name is I wrote it down because I wasn't a Exenatitde it's a Exenatitde

Dr. Angie Krause (14:23)
Okay.

here, let me Google it.

Exenatide Okay.

JoJo (14:31)
Yes. So it's

E-X-E-N-A-T-I-D-E. And it's coming out. I'm going to keep talking while you look it up. So exenatide is being produced by this Okava Pharmacy. And they are now moving into placebo controlled studies. So that's exciting. That's where they're going to bring 50 cats in. Some will be on a placebo and some will be on the actual medication. yeah, meow one. I know it's so cute.

Dr. Angie Krause (14:39)
Okay.

They're calling it Meow One. That's so cute.

JoJo (14:58)
Which is what,

does that stand for? was something, think, management of overweight cats. That's what it is, management of overweight cats. And so they're not just using it for diabetes in cats, but there is an endocrinologist out of Texas A who's actually started using human GLP ones in a small handful. Yeah, it did.

Dr. Angie Krause (15:01)
I don't know. ⁓

Okay.

does it say who?

Is it? Because I went to A ⁓

JoJo (15:26)
Yeah,

he said he's used it in a handful of cats that have, you know, with diabetes. And this is where it's gonna be really exciting because it is a lot to manage a diabetic cat. And overweight cats lead to diabetic cats. And so diabetic cats, you're sometimes giving insulin twice a day and injecting. It's a lot to ask of a pet parent And a lot of people will just choose to euthanize because it's a really hard case to manage.

Dr. Angie Krause (15:35)
my gosh, it's, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

JoJo (15:52)
⁓

So I'm excited that we might actually be able to, to one, reverse some diabetes in cats, two prevent diabetes in cats, and three, just make that longevity happen where we're not having to choose to euthanize cats because the treatment plans are so hard. Because this exenatide is just like a little implant that goes in. So if you can think of, you're a female in menopausal years, and I'm sorry to exclude men who don't,

Dr. Angie Krause (16:08)
Absolutely.

JoJo (16:18)
aren't going through this, but a lot of us will get those hormone implants, those little, and it's like a little grain of rice that they implant under your skin and it releases a hormone over time. And that's what it sounds like this will be. It's like a little implant, a little bit bigger than a microchip and over six months it's releasing the GLP one. So it's it's reducing the number of challenging interactions a pet parent is having to have with their cat.

Dr. Angie Krause (16:22)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, so they're using it just for diabetes. They're not using it for weight loss.

JoJo (16:43)
⁓ they are, but they,

with a big push toward... You mean in the endocrinologist? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And not often, because that's very off-label.

Dr. Angie Krause (16:48)
Yeah. Okay. Just for diabetes. Okay.

Right. No, they wouldn't do that. Yeah. Cause I think that the hard part, like I would love to try Fritz on this, but I also have to think about my license because if you just go start injecting drugs that haven't been studied and don't have like proof of concept and all that, I mean, you're really putting your license on the line. when, you're, if you're veterinarian says no right now, it's just because like, if they were to hurt your cat, then you know, they're liable for that.

JoJo (17:21)
Right, we don't have dosing yet. We don't have dosing. And it's my understanding that for those few cases that are being used right now, you're having to buy the human formulation, which is so expensive. So they're hoping to get this implanted chip down to under $100 a month, which that feels manageable because I don't know how much it's costing to do insulin per month, but I have to assume it's like worse than that.

Dr. Angie Krause (17:24)
It's

No.

⁓

It's worse because then you're having to monitor and then you have all of these kind of co-morbidities of being diabetic and there's a lot of diagnostics happening for diabetic kitties.

JoJo (17:57)
Yeah, I think the only place I had to hang up is when they're like, well, we were hoping that we can really call this a longevity drug too. And I'm like, let's not go there with cats yet. what are we talking about? Another six months, another year? I don't know.

Dr. Angie Krause (18:09)
I mean, what if cats start

living to 25 years? I don't know. I would be excited about the longevity of that because although it's like for longevity in cats, you'd really have to do something that is going to metabolically change their kidney disease. Right. Cause I think that's the end of a lot of kitties, but not all, but you know, some cats end up, dying from kind of like an Alzheimer's type of, you know,

JoJo (18:21)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Angie Krause (18:33)
cognitive dysfunction. And so don't we think for people that there's some kind of correlation that you're decreasing, like you right now are decreasing your risk for dementia?

JoJo (18:45)
For sure. Yeah. I mean, we're seeing that colorectal cancer is down by like 40 % or 60 % risk. It's, mean, it's significant what's happening. So you will not take this away from me. Just not gonna have it. When I'm 100. I mean, for me, was, it's life-changing in the fact that I can live longer and healthier with half a functioning pancreas.

Dr. Angie Krause (18:54)
Yeah.

You're like, you're gonna pry it out of my cold, dead hands.

JoJo (19:11)
Like that is actually protecting my pancreas. So I'm excited. I'm really actually super excited about this.

Dr. Angie Krause (19:11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yay, science. So let's talk about the people. Some of these are our people that are really integrative, holistic minded. Cause I remember for years you were like, my friend's on a GLP one, but I just can't do it. I just can't do it. Like you were like, I'm going to do this by myself. And now you've done it. And you're like, I wish I would have done it sooner. So what do you think? Like, what did you have to get? What, what was the hurdle you had to get past?

as an integrative minded person to start that drug.

JoJo (19:44)
Hmm.

Great question. One, I had to prove to myself that I couldn't do it. So I actually had two years of journaling my caloric intake and what I was eating to show the doctors and to show myself, hey, look, I'm really trying. And then I had to do all those intense workouts that I was doing like four or five times a week at Orange Theory of not losing. So I just had to prove it to myself. Like I had to try.

Dr. Angie Krause (20:14)
Mm.

Right. And I, that's such a good point. And I think as integrative and holistically minded people, I think we need to remember that fat deposition in cats is an inflammatory substance. Like it is causing inflammation. And so when we decrease our body fat or

cat's body fat. We know they have less inflammatory diseases like arthritis, like diabetes. And so while you might not appreciate that it's a like pharmaceutical and that it's not super natural, it is very effective. Well, hopefully it's very effective. It could be very effective and it could really benefit your kitty and help them live longer and happier.

JoJo (21:05)
Right. And I thought of, I also did some research into that. One, I wanted to know what percentage of our cats are obese. And some studies are saying upwards of like 60%. That was cats and dogs. That was not just cats. It was cats and dogs. And then I was thinking, cause they had, there was a drug that did come out for dogs called slentrol, I think it was called. And that is no longer available on the market.

Dr. Angie Krause (21:11)
⁓ my god, I'm 11.

for sure.

Okay.

Yes. Yes, yes, yes. I remember that.

JoJo (21:31)
And it was really because of lack of interest because pet parents didn't see obesity as a medical issue. And we did that to ourselves. We gaslit ourselves as humans for a long time. And I think that's where it's changing. And so maybe we can just be honest about the fact that obesity is really a problem.

Dr. Angie Krause (21:31)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, obesity is a problem. And I think I really struggle as a veterinarian. I would say the majority of cats that come into my exam room are overweight. They have a body condition score of about six out of nine, maybe seven out of nine. But I also understand that telling people with neutered or spayed cats that they keep indoors that they need to lose weight, their cat needs to lose weight, it's kind of an uphill battle.

And it's, it's a big ask. And I've always struggled to figure out like, how do I make coming to the vet a positive experience? But also I don't want them to feel isolated because I don't want every time I put their cat on scale, I'll be like, well, you failed again. Your cat's overweight, you know, and then list all the things. And so I've, I've tried to kind of come in the middle of, know, giving them the information, but also giving them.

permission to not make everything perfect. Like not every cat's gonna have a body condition score of four out of nine and be super svelte and especially when we have indoor kitties. But I think maybe especially for the cats that won't eat wet food, can't get off the kibble or like Fritz, he's on a raw diet. They just have so much food noise. Hopefully these GLP ones can be kind of a nice way to get more kitties on that.

four or five out of nine body condition score.

JoJo (23:11)
I want to go back to the question you asked me too, because that is part of it. I think once I started to see medical professionals that I trusted, so my functional medicine doctor, my integrative doctor, and I was seeing an obesity specialist at the time, and she was the one I didn't trust. I was like, well, her job, that's all she does, right? She's going to do whatever it takes to do it. And even my oncologist, when I went through breast cancer, and I was like,

Dr. Angie Krause (23:29)
Right, right.

JoJo (23:39)
once I started researching breast cancer, and the number one thing I could do for myself is lose weight. And I'm like, so and then once I started seeing medical professionals being like, it is okay to add this to your regimen. I think that was the moment too. So I think once, and you do a great job about this, about bringing in both worlds, right? You can do all the things with fritz or people we see people who really, really try.

Dr. Angie Krause (23:44)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

JoJo (24:05)
who

make all the changes and not even an ounce will budge on that cat. And that is discouraging.

Dr. Angie Krause (24:09)
Yes.

I know. Right. Yeah.

JoJo (24:12)
So I

don't know. We'll see where it goes. It's 18 to 24 months away still from an FDA approval, but we'll get there.

Dr. Angie Krause (24:19)
Yes, and I just also wanted to say there's so many drugs your cats take that have never been FDA approved. So.

JoJo (24:25)
Yeah, but that

was not a plug to go inject your GLP-1 into your cat. Please don't do that. Please.

Dr. Angie Krause (24:29)
Don't know. That was that

was like a side. That was a side note that we should do a whole episode on what it means to be FDA approved. Especially this is OK, we're just getting on a tangent and I'm to come back. But when people see like Cerenia when it just says FDA approved for dogs and I'm just giving it to their so like I feel like that's a conversation we should have. But do not inject your cat with a GLP one. Please don't do that until we know what to do. Yeah.

JoJo (24:56)
Yeah, please. Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (24:57)
and we do it for you. Okay.

JoJo (24:59)
Yeah, we'll keep you posted. We'll keep you updated. But I mean, I feel

like it's kind of front and center in all the news right now because well, one, there's money to be made. Pharmaceutical companies, and that's okay to be skeptical about that. I get that.

Dr. Angie Krause (25:09)
Yes.

Yes, totally.

But cats are fat. it's a, you know, like I have one, it's a problem. And so they're making money at least off of a problem that needs a solution. So that being said.

JoJo (25:25)
And I don't, why are they only

doing it in cats though? That's my last question. Why are they not studying it in dogs?

Dr. Angie Krause (25:30)
Ummm... That's

JoJo (25:32)
I know they're

different metabolically, so maybe it's just, I don't know.

Dr. Angie Krause (25:35)
Yeah, think cats probably have more insulin resistance than dogs metabolically, but I don't know if that's true. I have no data to support.

JoJo (25:42)
Well, we do see more diabetes in cats,

wouldn't you say that's true? Do you see more diabetes in cats than dogs?

Dr. Angie Krause (25:47)
Yeah,

I think I do. Overall, again, I have no data other than the feel of that. But if you have a fat kitty and you want to try having your kitty lose weight just with diet and exercise alone, I'm happy to help you put together a plan. And so we can meet by phone or by Zoom. You can book a consultation with me online. And if you use

the code FATCAT, you'll get 10 % off of your booking and we'll put together a plan and then pretty soon if that doesn't work hopefully a GLP-1 will be out to help your kitty be svelte.

JoJo (26:29)
Right? Okay, so you want to go to boulderholisticvet.com. The book a consultation button is on the right hand side. It's a little, I don't know what color you want to call it. It's kind of a sunset color.

Dr. Angie Krause (26:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yes, and then use the code when you check out FATCAT Okay, we want to know what you think, so leave us a comment, send us a message, and we'll see you next time. Bye.

JoJo (26:50)
Bye.