Dr. Angie Krause (00:00)
Welcome back to Tails of Truth, where we tell the truth about veterinary medicine. I'm Dr. Angie, and this is my co-host and veterinary nurse extraordinaire Jojo. And we are going to be talking about dog vaccines. And there's so much to say.

JoJo (00:15)
All right, we did cat vaccines.

I think that was that our first episode, one of our very first.

Dr. Angie Krause (00:20)
You know what? I don't even remember doing the vaccine episode for cats. Did we do it? ⁓

JoJo (00:25)
⁓

we did a vaccine sarcoma for cats. So think we covered a bit in there.

Dr. Angie Krause (00:28)
Oh,

we did. Okay. Yeah, I do remember the vaccine sarcoma one So now we're going to talk about dog vaccines. I'm going to try to keep it as high level as possible because this is a conversation I have in the exam room multiple times a day, every day in various forms because people need this information, you know, in very different formats with different filters.

JoJo (00:33)
Yeah. Yes.

Ha ha ha ha.

Right, so you know what,

can we just launch into puppyhood? Because I thought of something that we saw so many times that I never heard in conversation before working with you. And, okay, so let's start there. You're like, what's coming? No, it's fantastic information. So many times puppies would come to us, and they would be due for their second or third round of their puppy series.

Dr. Angie Krause (01:00)
Do it.

Okay. What's it gonna be? I know.

JoJo (01:23)
But when we would look at their records, we would find out they were actually vaccinated before like four weeks, five weeks, something early. And so you would have a conversation around that vaccine is actually null and void. And so start there.

Dr. Angie Krause (01:32)
yeah, yeah, I hate it when breeders do this.

Yes.

Okay, here's the scoop on puppy vaccines. Okay, so we have a puppy. Mom's antibodies are being transferred to puppy. And those antibodies slowly wear off. So they're being transferred from like her vaccines, things she's been exposed to. And it starts to wear off over time. Unfortunately, it doesn't wear off over time, like uniformly in the same in every dog

And so the reason why we wait until eight weeks is that maternal antibodies can kind of start falling, like the levels can fall and that puppy can make their own immune response. And so when I see vaccines that have happened before eight weeks, although if it's like seven and a half, like, it's going to be fine. I just don't count it. It's like it never happened. And, and then anything after eight weeks definitely counts. But the reason why we keep vaccinating your pup.

for Parvo and distemper over and over and over again is because we want to make sure that as those antibodies are wearing off that your dog is making their own. And so it's kind of this like critical time they're out and about in the world, they're being exposed to stuff. Parvo and distemper, biggest threats. Distemper around here is not such a big threat. Parvo virus, still not as huge as like I have seen in Texas or other places.

I don't know, maybe even Pueblo, Colorado is a different story. We don't see a lot of it, but it is devastating. I've seen enough of it that still vaccinate. If your puppy's healthy, please vaccinate your puppy for parvovirus. It's devastating and we don't need to do it. And so, what depends...

JoJo (03:13)
And don't you feel like

those parvo puppies have lifelong? They just, I feel like they never thrive quite the same.

Dr. Angie Krause (03:18)
Yeah, I mean, I

I know, I do wonder about that. think it, yeah, I think it probably depends, but like basically when your dog gets parvovirus, they like slough their entire intestines. Not to be gross, but I mean, this is the truth. It's awful. So it makes their intestines permeable. Talk about leaky gut. It's like the epitome of gut damage. so, yes, their gut heals, you know, the thing is, your dog doesn't have to get parvovirus.

We can just prevent it. So let's just not do it. Let's just not do it if you can. I mean, sometimes people acquire puppies that have parvo virus and it's not your fault. But the other thing to keep in mind is after. So if that vaccine is given, it is not effective for two weeks, 14 days. So you can't go and get your eight week old puppy a parvo virus and then go to PetSmart the next day or the dog.

JoJo (04:11)
Right.

Training classes, puppy training classes. Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (04:14)
And not quite yet, not quite yet.

At least let's give it two weeks. But to that end, if we're going to talk about puppies, I do some relief at different clinics and I've definitely followed around. are a couple of veterinarians that will not let their like 12 week old puppies out into the world until they've had their 16 week vaccine. And I hate that. I think it's terrible advice. And I think we're doing dogs a disservice.

Because now you're in a socialization time window that's so important. Your dog needs to see other dogs, kids, bikes, skateboards, cats, cars, UPS trucks. Like all of it needs to happen then. And so I, you know, especially depending on the breed, it's more important for some breeds than others. Like please do not take your cattle dog and keep them cooped up from.

12 to 16 weeks. Like if they've had a vaccine two weeks after their first vaccine, let's let them into the wild, but not into like high parvo risk areas. Like we don't have to go to the dog park to be in the wild and we don't have to go to Petco or PetSmart. No shade to Petco or PetSmart, but we just know there's a lot of traffic. Like please take your dog to Petco and PetSmart after this. And so I think those are the things that people get wrong about.

about puppies

JoJo (05:30)
Right, so if we start their puppy series too early, we have to start over.

Dr. Angie Krause (05:34)
Yeah, it's just kind of like that vaccine never happened. And maybe your dog has some immunity. I know I see a lot of breeders do that, especially like in the South. And they're doing it because they're scared. And I get it. So I don't.

JoJo (05:45)
they have so

many puppies in the home, so. ⁓

Dr. Angie Krause (05:48)
Yeah, I get it. It just it

just doesn't really count for like long term. Okay, so we have our puppies. Okay, so we're vaccinating for parvo distemper for sure. And, and that vaccine is called a million different things. Some people call it like a DAPP. Like anyways, don't worry about that. Your veterinarian is going to say parvo distemper probably. And then then puppies can also start a leptosporosis vaccine series.

JoJo (05:52)
Yep. Okay.

Right.

Ouch.

Dr. Angie Krause (06:16)
I know. I, okay, as someone who doesn't see, the last Lepto case I've had, which I'm going to immediately see one because I'm saying this, I'm gonna knock on some wood, the last one I saw was in 2014. In my little area we don't see a lot. I think it changes even if you go up to Longmont or down to Denver, but I tend to wait for my puppies to have Lepto spirosis but that is because I'm in a very privileged area that doesn't see a lot of it. So

please talk to your veterinarian in your area. That's not me making a recommendation for your dog. That's me making recommendations for the patients I'm seeing. And so you can start that series at 12, 16 weeks, and it's just a two-shot series. ⁓ But sometimes I'll wait a little bit longer, especially my little

JoJo (07:02)
I know. I mean, I've heard that Leptosporosis stings.

Dr. Angie Krause (07:06)
Yes, it does sting. Yeah. I see. gosh, mean, 20 years ago when I got out of school, do you remember how reactive the leptospirosis vaccine was?

JoJo (07:16)
Yes. I mean, disclosure, I don't vaccinate for leptospirosis because my dogs are low risk exposure, and because of just how quickly it wears off. I mean, it's always been a conversation. Leptospirosis has always been a conversation that I've had for my dogs, but now it's a core vaccine. So I think that's gonna change the conversations.

Dr. Angie Krause (07:17)
Like.

Yeah.

I give more leptospirosis now than I ever have before. And one, the vaccine is so much better. When I got out of school, this is going to sound terrible, but we are telling the truth about veterinary medicine. Like there were reports of dogs dropping dead after that vaccine. And

JoJo (07:53)
was so scary.

I wonder if that's why I still don't do it. But go ahead. Sorry to interrupt. Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (07:56)
Yeah, that's bad PR, right?

That's bad PR. And I think ultimately, I don't think the leptovaccine is that great in the sense that I wish I could have a better technology. It doesn't cover all the serovars and it only lasts for a year. And so it doesn't make it the best solution, but so serovars are strains just to, you know, doesn't.

JoJo (08:20)
Right, and it covers

what about, is it about a dozen, 10 to a dozen out of how many I can't remember.

Dr. Angie Krause (08:25)
Yeah, which I think it's half.

I feel like it's half. And so the last time we had a leptospirosis outbreak in Boulder was in 2014. And I remember talking to the internist that were hospitalizing all these guys. We'll talk about what happens when we're talking about leptospirosis next. I was talking to the internist and I was like, okay, how many of your hospitalized patients are vaccinated? And he said about 30 to 40%. And so it's like, ah, it's not like rabies or I'm like, I'm

JoJo (08:48)
Right.

Dr. Angie Krause (08:53)
feeling like 99.999 % sure your dog's not gonna get rabies or your cat's not gonna get rabies. And ⁓ this one doesn't carry that same assurance. But when I talk to people about whether or not we're gonna do this, I do tell them if your dog gets leptospirosis, their kidneys and liver are going to fail. It is gonna cost you, at least here in Boulder County, a minimum of $15,000.

to get them through it alive on the other side. And so a lot of people choose that vaccine financially to cut risk.

JoJo (09:20)
Mm-hmm.

to cut risk.

Like it's not gonna mitigate all risk, right? Because it's kind of like a flu vaccine in a sense where, you know, where they're determining what they think the flu strain is going to look like. The vaccine that they produce is not always going to cover the strain that actually comes out or all strains of flu that come out. Except it's a little more consistent than the flu vaccine.

Dr. Angie Krause (09:34)
Yes.

Yeah, it's different because leptospirosis isn't mutating. Yeah, it's not mutating. It's just there's just different serivars. And what I tell people and other veterinarians might cringe when I say this, but because I haven't seen a lot, what I tell people to do is take in their water bowls because it's transmitted a lot, at least in this region, by raccoons in their urine. And raccoons like to pee in water, which is so gross. But

JoJo (09:50)
Yeah.

changing.

Dr. Angie Krause (10:17)
So I tell people, bring in your water bowls. Don't have a water bowl in your backyard. ⁓

JoJo (10:17)
Right?

Right, and if you have

a hiking dog, it's usually from a water source that they have drank out.

Dr. Angie Krause (10:27)
But

like any cases I've ever seen it's just someone's backyard situation. We used to think we should only vaccinate the hunting dogs and now I don't really know. And you know what? I haven't seen enough leptospirosis in my career to have any opinion and so probably some other veterinarian. Please make a comment on this.

JoJo (10:32)
Yeah.

Well, what about it

made it become a core vaccine? Do you know, is it becoming more prevalent in other regions? Yeah, I wonder if that's what it is.

Dr. Angie Krause (10:49)
maybe. I don't know like

when the committee met and you know when they decided like it should be a core vaccine. I don't know. You know I do trust that they had data to support it. I don't think it was like a big pharma lobbying the panel. I don't think anything like that was happening. But and I also noticed much fewer reactions to it. It does sting for some.

JoJo (10:54)
Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (11:16)
dogs I would say, because I give it a lot now, I mean, I would say 20 % give me a look back of like, Oh, what was that? And then every once in while, I have a dog that's been extremely sore afterwards for like 24 to 48 hours at the injection site, but like makes their whole body sore. I wonder, yeah, like it's like wherever we give it like, they're like, I couldn't touch their shoulders for like day or two.

JoJo (11:23)
Mm-hmm.

like tetanus

Yeah,

aw.

Dr. Angie Krause (11:41)
But

that's happened to me with distemper parvo too. Small dogs.

JoJo (11:44)
And once you start with

LEPTO, you want to continue with LEPTO because if you miss over that year, you have to start the series again. So then you have to do a double dose like a month apart. So it's kind of one you want to stay on top of.

Dr. Angie Krause (11:54)
Yes.

Stay on top of it. And yeah, because then we have to booster it. It doesn't last that long. And it's not like, it's not the vaccine manufacturers fault. It's just that the body doesn't make a lot of long standing immunity to spirochetes, which is like a bacteria.

JoJo (11:59)
Okay.

Okay, so that was Lepto. Still in puppies. So other puppy vaccine, Bordetella.

Dr. Angie Krause (12:12)
Yeah, I was left out.

I never care about this vaccine. You know who cares about this vaccine are boarding kennels, which makes sense. But I never see a puppy and think, well, we got to get that bordetella vaccine in, ⁓ which is a kennel cough. And kennel cough is a bunch of viruses of bacteria that cause coughing. It's kind of like calling something the common cold. I'm going to go get my cold vaccine. And we are vaccinating for a particular strain of bacteria. And maybe there's like a

your influenza or you know, maybe there's some other things in there. But it's, you know, it's not going to stop your dog from getting kennel cough, it might lessen it. And in group settings, we know it's good to do. So it's not that I think boarding, it's disease control. Yeah, you're not, you know, you're not kind of doing it for your individual dog as much as just keeping down any outbreak. And I really encourage people whenever you can to get the oral Bordetella

JoJo (12:56)
Right, it's disease control, really is.

Dr. Angie Krause (13:12)
just because it works better. So you're getting the immune response in the back of the throat where you want it, like the tonsils and all the immune tissue back there. So we know it works better and it lasts longer. Although some dogs, you can't do that if you have to muzzle them. Although we've taught so many people to give their own dogs their Bordetella vaccine. It's one you can give your own dog.

JoJo (13:34)
What options are there? Is there still a nasal?

Dr. Angie Krause (13:36)
There's still an intranasal one, which I hate that one. Why are we still using that? Because basically you're tilting the dog's nose up and then you're dropping drops in their nose and they do not appreciate this. No one wants to get this vaccine.

JoJo (13:47)
It's hard

on everybody to do that vaccine. The oral one was so much easier. It's just hard to draw up. They made it not simple. The container, I've cut myself on that container a few times too. like, ⁓ yeah. Anyhow, that's nobody else has to worry about that. That's just hard.

Dr. Angie Krause (13:53)
Yeah, the oral one tastes good.

it's still that bad. It's still that bad. I hate the container that thing comes in and I mess it up.

Yes. Peeling that off. Yeah, still a nightmare. Yeah, totally.

JoJo (14:13)
You will never know. We'll never let you know that that's really happening.

Dr. Angie Krause (14:16)
Totally, we don't

JoJo (14:18)
Okay, so Bordetella. And they're

probably not gonna let you bring your dog to the groomer, to puppy daycare. And some are gonna require every six months. And some are gonna be every year. Same vaccine. Yeah. It's good for more than a year actually. When they did the studies. Yeah, think it was closer to 18 months, but don't quote me on that please. But I believe like we know that it definitely goes to a year.

Dr. Angie Krause (14:32)
which irritates me. It irritates me because it's...

is it really?

Okay, I didn't know that.

I know, I hate it when boarding kennels are like, no, you have to give that every six months. And part of me is like, don't tell me what to do. Don't tell me what to do. But then I do it. Because I want my dogs to go.

JoJo (14:51)
Yeah, they do. Yeah.

Right, we have, yeah, they have to. ⁓

And you know, my groomer asked for the Leptoproof. Now there's a core vaccine. And I was like, no. Like I don't want to do that to my 12 year old dog. Who's just really not getting exposed. Okay, but puppies still. So now we've gone through Bordetella. Then the other controversial timeframe is for rabies.

Dr. Angie Krause (15:03)
⁓ snap.

no. Okay.

Yeah, well.

Oh yeah, I know, I don't-

JoJo (15:21)
People tend

to vaccinate pretty early.

Dr. Angie Krause (15:24)
I it used to be like, I think it was 16 weeks and then it moved to 12 weeks. Jean Dodd, if you go to like the more integrative side, she's like six months. And I am so privileged to work in the practice I work in because I just, every puppy has their own tailor made, you know, yeah, like it's, yeah. So I don't, I give it when it seems like the right time to give it based off of the time of year.

JoJo (15:41)
vaccine protocol. Yeah. I love that.

Dr. Angie Krause (15:50)
If I have a 12-week-old puppy and they're like, we want to go camping next week, yep, we're doing that because we do have rabies around here. But if it's February and they're four months or three months old, I'm not going to do it at 12 weeks. I'm going to wait.

JoJo (16:08)
and it's the Italian

Greyhound that's gonna live in the apartment in his little sweater.

Dr. Angie Krause (16:11)
Right, exactly. Although

the last two rabies cases in Boulder have been in bats

JoJo (16:18)
Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (16:19)
So anyways,

not to add more fear, but I do it when it seems like the right time to do it, which is sounds probably like witchcraft, but it's more about like, do some people want to spread out the vaccine? Some people want to do them all at the same time. Some dogs are little, some dogs are big. Like it really depends on the situation. And so that's why I don't have like, I always do rabies at this time.

JoJo (16:44)
Can we talk about something that was asked of us this week around rabies vaccines? Okay. Okay. So I do, love that. I love, I love when people are advocating for what they feel is best for their animal. someone reached out and had a veterinarian on the West coast who was giving their dogs a titrated or a smaller amount of rabies vaccine based on their weight.

Dr. Angie Krause (16:49)
Yes, let's talk about it. And it's good.

JoJo (17:10)
And I have so many questions around that because one, I wonder how is that from a law standpoint, so much of why we give rabies is because it is required by law. How are they getting around that without a full dose of a rabies vaccine? And how do we know that is as effective? I mean, I have so many questions around that. You probably know all my questions, just answer them.

You

Dr. Angie Krause (17:33)
Yeah, I'll talk about this.

I spent a lot of time talking about this. And it's tricky because vaccines aren't dosed like drugs because they don't work like drugs. So we're just stimulating the immune system. And so let's like start the conversation with that. But also, I think it's so reasonable that people are like, wait a minute, my two pound chihuahua.

is going to get the same dose of rabies as my 120 pound Great Dane. Like

JoJo (18:03)
Yeah, fantastic

curiosity and thinking skills. Definitely. Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (18:06)
Yeah, and

I'm going to admit, as I pull my cat off of my desk one more time, I'm going to admit that there's a little bit, there's some holes in our data. And the reason why there are holes in the data is because if we studied, so we studied rabies vaccines on Beagles If we did all these other studies on different sizes, different breeds, there would be a lot of loss of life.

And so just we're telling the truth. isn't a soft or a lovely truth. But when we test rabies vaccines, we give animals the vaccine and we give, and some animals don't get the vaccine. And then we challenge them with the disease.

JoJo (18:47)
yeah, so it's a death penalty.

Dr. Angie Krause (18:49)
It's yes. this is not a time where the pharmaceutical industry is trying to scam you. This is ethics of what do we find acceptable? And so I think that it makes sense why people are like, I don't want my two pound chihuahua getting the same dose. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to have a different reaction.

If that makes sense, like, let's say you're like, okay, well, I'm going to give my two pound chihuahua a quarter of a cc. Most of these vaccines are one ml or one cc. So it's like, I can understand why you think I'm going to give my chihuahua a quarter of the dose.

But it just doesn't work like that because it's not a drug. And we don't know that that's actually going to stimulate the immune system enough. Just like, right. Yeah. And just like a Great Dane, we're not going to give them two cc's. And so I understand people's concern. But what I do is if I have small dogs that react to vaccines poorly,

JoJo (19:35)
Like it's enough to stimulate. Do you mean? Yeah, I mean response.

Dr. Angie Krause (19:54)
I'll use titer tests or we'll use a different, schedule. And so I think that's really where we get into trouble is that small dogs do have more vaccine reactions. And I don't think the answer is giving them less of a vaccine dose.

JoJo (20:10)
Right. It's to maybe, so what you feel the answer is, is to then test titers and shift their protocol or shift their schedule of their vaccines. Well, I mean, it depends on how bad the reaction is, right? That's gonna shift it completely, yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (20:10)
I think there's a difference.

Yes.

Exactly. Yes,

yes. And so I think then we need to really get into their individual protocol. What happened? What was their reaction? Because if they did fine with their rabies vaccine, they're probably always going to do fine with the rabies vaccine. mean, this isn't always the case, but there's no need to change.

JoJo (20:46)
Okay.

Dr. Angie Krause (20:46)
just because they're little.

JoJo (20:47)
So rabies vaccines, let's clear that out and close that out. Those ⁓ after the first year are given every three years typically.

Dr. Angie Krause (20:56)
At least in Colorado, maybe some other states have different. Yeah. And really in Colorado, it's not mandated by the state. Everyone's like, this is required by the state. No, it's not. It's actually required by the county. Yeah. And here, everyone kind of follows the every three year rules that is industry standard. That might be different in different states.

JoJo (20:58)
it could be different. Yeah, that is true.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, so a puppy has gotten through their series around six months of age on average. So then we're looking at every year, to three years, depending on the vaccination or the vaccine.

Dr. Angie Krause (21:30)
Yeah, so

yeah, if your puppy got their rabies vaccine between four and six months, then they're going to be due in one year and then after that every three years.

JoJo (21:40)
Yep. And then we have vaccines that are being offered more is the influenza the vaccine.

Dr. Angie Krause (21:45)
Yes, I actually give this one sometimes because there is a local boarding facility that's a veterinary clinic in Boulder that requires it. And I don't use this one because I just don't see canine influenza around here. I know we have that weird outbreak. ⁓ like three or four years ago. And it was

JoJo (22:00)
Yeah, that was an outbreak, but.

Again, is this

more disease control mean like community like keeping community Pretty clear of disease or is it a really hard disease to have?

Dr. Angie Krause (22:10)
I don't know.

Well, whatever was going on, and I don't know that we ever confirmed it was canine influenza. It was really bad. But then it kind of went away and I don't know. No one ever said it was canine influenza. So why I'm vaccinating saying for canine influenza. I don't know. I don't necessarily agree with that. Protocol to do canine influenza right now, but you know, I'm happy to.

JoJo (22:35)
So maybe during

times of outbreak, might become, I don't know, I can tell you, I've been to other clinics and it's never been offered to me.

Dr. Angie Krause (22:38)
Yeah!

No. Yeah, so we just literally have it for people that are boarding there. It's the only reason why we carry it in the clinic. Yeah.

JoJo (22:47)
Okay. Okay.

And maybe and again, in other parts of the country, this is more standard of care than it is here.

Dr. Angie Krause (22:53)
Right. Yeah.

JoJo (22:54)
And same with the lyme vaccine I think in my whole career, I've given two of those.

Dr. Angie Krause (23:00)
Yeah, I've never given one Not that I remember anyways. We don't have it here.

JoJo (23:03)
Now

I we did order it for one client. That was gonna be traveling, yeah. Because I remember, because it was very, very expensive. Yeah, it was really pricey. ⁓ That's what I remember about it. But I would assume in the Northeast, again, with all your ticks and lyme this is standard of care. Yeah. And if we had ticks and lyme here,

Dr. Angie Krause (23:08)
Oh, did we? You're like, actually, Angie, you did give it and it was with me. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah.

yeah. Would be like.

JoJo (23:29)
probably one I would consider.

Dr. Angie Krause (23:30)
Totally, Lyme's disease sucks. No one wants it. I actually, and I don't know because I don't use that vaccine. I don't know how well it works.

JoJo (23:32)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know anything about it. That is so interesting to have parts of veterinary medicine that we just don't experience at all. Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (23:46)
keep up with it all.

so I've actually the last couple weeks of practice the rattlesnake vaccine has come up.

JoJo (23:53)
⁓

yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. huh.

Dr. Angie Krause (23:54)
So we carry it in the clinic and

I have a couple of people that do it. And I'm always like, you know, this is like not going to maybe change anything. And they're like, I know, but I don't care because I have rattlesnakes all over my property. And they're like.

JoJo (24:06)
We've had

so many this year and right now is breeding season so it's so bad. I pull a baby rattler out of my office. Like what, earlier this week, last week? Yeah.

Dr. Angie Krause (24:11)
Ugh.

I'm so sorry. Yeah,

and I really like snakes, but rattlesnakes scare me. Yeah, I don't like that. But would you give your dogs the rattlesnake vaccine knowing that it doesn't? Yeah.

JoJo (24:21)
Yeah.

No, it's not effective enough. I've read

all the data, like they offer it and I'm just like, but why? I feel like maybe it might buy me more time to get to the emergency clinic. Like I might just have more time and that that venom. No, but it might, mean, I mean like that part of it feels true, right? But no, I've never done it and my dog has been bit by a rattlesnake in my own yard. And we do have, cause we back up to open space on

Dr. Angie Krause (24:37)
Do we know that's true? We don't even know it's true. Hypothetical. Yeah, you're like, I don't know.

JoJo (24:52)
multiple sides of our house and we just have so many. Sage stepped on a giant one last week on our walk, just stepped right on it. And it was so mad. No, it didn't bite her. We had, I mean, Adam and I were just panicked. So anyhow, rattlesnakes and I have not given the vaccine. Again, I feel like it's more hype than it is. What's the word I'm looking for? It's more hype than.

Dr. Angie Krause (25:01)
and it didn't bite her.

I bet it went, did it just?

Yeah, I know someone asked for it.

Yeah.

It's effective. It's not really that effective. Yeah, no one's doing it.

JoJo (25:18)
Yeah.

I think rattlesnake training would probably be a better option than the rattlesnake vaccine.

Dr. Angie Krause (25:24)
Right. Sounds exhausting. ⁓

JoJo (25:25)
Yeah, I

forgot about that one. That's how under the radar it is for me. Oh my God, I'm never gonna do that.

Dr. Angie Krause (25:28)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I think I think we covered all the vaccines. And I think we.

JoJo (25:34)
Yeah, I wonder what questions

we left people with though, because I feel like vaccines are such a huge topic.

Dr. Angie Krause (25:40)
my gosh. And we did a whole episode on titer testing, didn't we? Or did we just talk about doing that episode? And we did it. Okay.

JoJo (25:44)
Yeah, well, it's going out on Friday. Yeah. So by the time

this releases that will have been announced. You can go back and watch our tighter episode, which is a great compliment to this topic.

Dr. Angie Krause (25:54)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So we'd to hear from you. And I do have a course on our website boulderholisticvet.com where I went over vaccines. So it's a more in depth conversation. And you can get that for free just because you're listening to this podcast using the code truth tales. And if you go to I think if you navigate to learn more on our website, there's a course section.

and you can use that code and you can spell tails any way you want but like only ways that are actual words and that was yeah those are your two options and so you can get that for free and then we'd love to hear from you what you know what have you hated that we've said in this i feel like so many of the comments are just like i hate what you said i know which is fine

JoJo (26:23)
Yeah. Right, don't spell it any way you want, it won't work. T-A-I-L-S or T-A-L-E-S, those are your options.

You don't know anything.

Dr. Angie Krause (26:47)
You can tell us that but what questions do you have? What can we answer? No matter where you're on?

JoJo (26:52)
I would also love to know

if you live somewhere else in the US, what vaccines are being offered to you on your annual visits?

Dr. Angie Krause (26:58)
Yeah,

and some veterinarian that's listening to this that practices in a Lyme endemic area. How long does that vaccine work? Someone tell me. Yeah. Okay, see you next time. Bye.

JoJo (27:07)
Yeah, I would love to know. Okay, take care.